An outlining question - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T09:57:26Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:100732?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A101248&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI do full plot outlines, with…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-19:537324:Comment:1167432008-01-19T14:34:27.151ZNeil Whitehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/NeilWhite
I do full plot outlines, with scene-by-scene summaries. The outline gives me a journey, and like all journeys, sometimes you take a detour, but you never get lost if you know the destination.
I do full plot outlines, with scene-by-scene summaries. The outline gives me a journey, and like all journeys, sometimes you take a detour, but you never get lost if you know the destination. I do the whole shooting match…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-14:537324:Comment:1148602008-01-14T22:08:48.287Zhelen blackhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/helenblack
I do the whole shooting match - character biogs and outline. I love the planning stages of a book which is why my poor editor is waiting for my promised draft and I'm fannying about on Crime Space.
I do the whole shooting match - character biogs and outline. I love the planning stages of a book which is why my poor editor is waiting for my promised draft and I'm fannying about on Crime Space. Olen's example about wonderin…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-08:537324:Comment:1123302008-01-08T15:18:36.619ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Olen's example about wondering about a character's background after the fact just happened to me. After setting out to show the brutal mayhem created by an assassin, I reached the end of the book realizing that he was my only flat character, an arch villain. Alas! Cannot have that. Must give him the sort of background that made him what he is.<br />
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Quite right, Olen.
Olen's example about wondering about a character's background after the fact just happened to me. After setting out to show the brutal mayhem created by an assassin, I reached the end of the book realizing that he was my only flat character, an arch villain. Alas! Cannot have that. Must give him the sort of background that made him what he is.<br />
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Quite right, Olen. I'm pretty much the same as O…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-08:537324:Comment:1121232008-01-08T01:11:50.993ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
I'm pretty much the same as Olen. You introduce a character, you have a general idea who he or she is, he or she acts in certain ways, and the background is revealed in context.<br />
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I always thought that those character outlines that some writing instructors and textbook writers want writers to complete are like filling out a questionaire on someone I don't know yet, but will soon get to know.<br />
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When I start with the generality, the specific fills in pretty quickly. I usually know only a few things…
I'm pretty much the same as Olen. You introduce a character, you have a general idea who he or she is, he or she acts in certain ways, and the background is revealed in context.<br />
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I always thought that those character outlines that some writing instructors and textbook writers want writers to complete are like filling out a questionaire on someone I don't know yet, but will soon get to know.<br />
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When I start with the generality, the specific fills in pretty quickly. I usually know only a few things before I begin to write about a character: the obvious character traits, the general description, one very specific goal, and one or more specific qualities, whether the character developed those over a lifetime or discovers them while facing the problems of the story.<br />
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Jack Bludis I'm with those who don't do a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-08:537324:Comment:1121032008-01-08T00:13:14.176ZOlen Steinhauerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/olensteinhauer
I'm with those who don't do any kind of character sketch beforehand. Character is action, and so the idea of coming up with elaborate histories and backgrounds seems beside the point. Characters act their part in the story, and only then do I think--"Someone who does THIS must necessarily have had THAT kind of background." By then it's an interplay between character and action, if you know what I mean.<br />
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That said, the real truth of writing is that the rules are never constant, are they? I have…
I'm with those who don't do any kind of character sketch beforehand. Character is action, and so the idea of coming up with elaborate histories and backgrounds seems beside the point. Characters act their part in the story, and only then do I think--"Someone who does THIS must necessarily have had THAT kind of background." By then it's an interplay between character and action, if you know what I mean.<br />
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That said, the real truth of writing is that the rules are never constant, are they? I have attempted character backgrounds as a kind of exercise, but find them too horribly boring to actually complete unless that background is part of the present-tense story. With my last book this happened, and that background storyline became the "big secret" of the novel. So what do I know? Not at all pretentious, Jeffr…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-02:537324:Comment:1102212008-01-02T22:09:03.251ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Not at all pretentious, Jeffrey. I think you are quite right. I have not worked like that since I used to do scholarly writing and then the outline was crucial and made the writing easy.<br />
The same should be true of the novel, but I haven't been able to do this of late. I want to let the story tell itself and am afraid I'll miss the sudden insights that happen serendipitously as you write a scene. Outlining is such a dry exercise and better for being unemotional, but it tends to be uninspired.
Not at all pretentious, Jeffrey. I think you are quite right. I have not worked like that since I used to do scholarly writing and then the outline was crucial and made the writing easy.<br />
The same should be true of the novel, but I haven't been able to do this of late. I want to let the story tell itself and am afraid I'll miss the sudden insights that happen serendipitously as you write a scene. Outlining is such a dry exercise and better for being unemotional, but it tends to be uninspired. Jude brings up an interesting…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-01-02:537324:Comment:1101582008-01-02T18:57:44.502ZEric Eckerthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EricEckert
Jude brings up an interesting idea regarding screenwriting -- something I've been wondering about. I took a screenwriting class, and we had to write out dialogue and character sketches prior to writing the screenplay. Although the sketches always seemed to change somewhat as the characters evolved during the writing process, I had something to go back to if I felt I was writing in the wrong direction.<br />
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Another thing the professor promoted was writing the scenes out individually on index cards.…
Jude brings up an interesting idea regarding screenwriting -- something I've been wondering about. I took a screenwriting class, and we had to write out dialogue and character sketches prior to writing the screenplay. Although the sketches always seemed to change somewhat as the characters evolved during the writing process, I had something to go back to if I felt I was writing in the wrong direction.<br />
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Another thing the professor promoted was writing the scenes out individually on index cards. Once that was done, you could tack them to a board or move them around to make them fit. I have scenes and dialogue in my head that might not happen for 200 pages, but I want to make sure I have them down before I forget them. I think this process (or a form of this process) can be helpful with multiple (or complex) story lines, and I plan to incorporate this exercise into the writing of my current novel. Terrific discussion. Thought…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-20:537324:Comment:1063482007-12-20T22:32:48.668ZJeffrey Kinghornhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JKinghorn
Terrific discussion. Thought I'd add my two bits.<br />
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I've been writing for thirty years; started in school with short stories and really bad poetry; after school I threw myself into playwriting and had good luck for about ten years; then I moved to screenwriting and had some more good luck during another ten year period. Always wanted to tackle the novel, and I've been at that for about eight years and am just about to have my first two novels published and am nearly finished with the third in…
Terrific discussion. Thought I'd add my two bits.<br />
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I've been writing for thirty years; started in school with short stories and really bad poetry; after school I threw myself into playwriting and had good luck for about ten years; then I moved to screenwriting and had some more good luck during another ten year period. Always wanted to tackle the novel, and I've been at that for about eight years and am just about to have my first two novels published and am nearly finished with the third in the series. Also have a novel for young readers, which has not yet found a home. Everyone's got a back story--that's mine--and I only write it to say that I USED to sit down at the typewriter (then the computer) with tremendous inspiration, usually derived from some kind of character glimmer or rhythm, and I would literally 'have at the typewriter'! Nothing but blood, sweat, tears, and terror, as I was not always sure, even well into a piece that I actually had a story to tell. It was hard, arduous, Herculean effort!<br />
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And I'm glad that way of working is behind me.<br />
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Now, I have spent as much as a year and more just on the outline. I write step outlines, as you would with a screenplay, all narrative, no dialogue, and as much as possible, the major dramatic action in each chapter and scene, AND AS MANY OF THE BEATS AS POSSIBLE, are all worked out in that form.<br />
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I never begin drafting the manuscript anymore until I am positive that I have a story--and that I know what it is--and that I know my characters--and I 'for sure' know how the thing is going to end!<br />
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I find it makes the actual drafting of the manuscript pure joy, and relatively quick. That is not to say that the writing isn't hard--it is--writing is hard work--but there is no TERROR! No wondering and worrying as to whether or not the story is going to bottom out half or three quarters of the way through.<br />
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Then I revise and revise and revise. I've grown to love the revisions, where, as a young writer, I hated them.<br />
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If a story isn't going to work, I'd sooner find that out earlier rather than later.<br />
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Too, it helped that I finally discovered the kind of book I wanted to write in terms of length, style, and manner of telling.<br />
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All that being said, the drafting process, despite all the pre-drafting work, is a hugely improvisational endeavor wherein I feel free to go wherever the moment of inspiration takes me with the security of a solid story scaffolded in the outline underneath the drafting process.<br />
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What a pretentous so-and-so I sound like. I am delighted to have found this site. I love talking about writing! And, as I live in the woods up here in New Hampshire, it's good to make contact with other writers!<br />
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Y'all are awesome! For a new project, the plot u…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-09:537324:Comment:1025862007-12-09T20:41:45.515ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
For a new project, the plot unfolds, during the first fifty pages. Then I do a plot outline.<br />
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My characters reveal themselves as they go along. I begin with preconceptions but often change a character as the book progresses. Sometimes, a perceived good person is bad. At other times, an apparent villain becomes just another important character. Occasionally, I'll combine characters.<br />
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No matter what my preconceptions, though, the unexpected often happens.<br />
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Story characters often become the grist…
For a new project, the plot unfolds, during the first fifty pages. Then I do a plot outline.<br />
<br />
My characters reveal themselves as they go along. I begin with preconceptions but often change a character as the book progresses. Sometimes, a perceived good person is bad. At other times, an apparent villain becomes just another important character. Occasionally, I'll combine characters.<br />
<br />
No matter what my preconceptions, though, the unexpected often happens.<br />
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Story characters often become the grist for novels.<br />
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Jack I tend to know more about my…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-09:537324:Comment:1025272007-12-09T16:14:26.278ZPersia Walkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Persia
I tend to know more about my characters than I realize I know. In other words, the knowledge comes to the fore as I write the story. I do tend, however, to jot down these "revelations." Experience has shown me that holding them in my head is an effort that drains creative energy and prevents other "stuff" from coming up.<br />
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In ON WRITING, Stephen King likens learning about his story and characters to having movers move up stuff from the basement. He says that like most moving men, the boys in the…
I tend to know more about my characters than I realize I know. In other words, the knowledge comes to the fore as I write the story. I do tend, however, to jot down these "revelations." Experience has shown me that holding them in my head is an effort that drains creative energy and prevents other "stuff" from coming up.<br />
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In ON WRITING, Stephen King likens learning about his story and characters to having movers move up stuff from the basement. He says that like most moving men, the boys in the basement bring up what they want when they want, and that they're more concerned with carrying the stuff than what the stuff is. So they'll bring up boxes for the kitchen and put them down in the living room and stuff for the living room they will leave in the bedroom, etc. If you interrupt the boys and tell them to wait while you "unpack" thee box and see where they belong, then their muscles will grow cold, and they tend to get lazy and fade away. (Your imagination grows cold and your momentum suffers.) So he says to just let the boys bring up the boxes in whatever way they wish. When they're done, you can unpack and sort at your leisure.<br />
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I've always loved that metaphor and find that it works for me. When enough boxes have been brought up, I stop writing and start organizing, putting scenes and snatches of dialog where they belong, ironing out inconsistencies in the plot, But by and large, I find that writing a lengthy, detailed outline and descriptions of character background beforehand does nothing but stifle creativity.<br />
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For me, momentum is key. I just think that every writer should work in a way that lets him or her write as fast as he or she can. I try to get down as much of the story as I know, and then I sit back and look at what I have. It sounds disorganized, but it's basically giving my left brain and right brain their allotted time. When I'm in left brain mode, then my right brain/inner editor is quiet. There's peace in the house (no internal struggle) and the writing is better for it.<br />
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Does that answer make any sense?