Recycling Is A Dirty Word - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T12:46:34Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:12974?id=537324%3ATopic%3A12974&feed=yes&xn_auth=noSome days, I think I could ge…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:140842007-03-27T20:38:07.866ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
Some days, I think I could get behind creating a "man in jeopardy" plot line. Except he usually doesn't get rescued...
Some days, I think I could get behind creating a "man in jeopardy" plot line. Except he usually doesn't get rescued... It's the tricks to lure her o…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:140802007-03-27T20:31:57.591ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
It's the tricks to lure her out that are the trick for me. You've really got to sell me on that.<br />
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Main thing is, the main protagonist is a male cop, for starters. This is primarily his story. Second to that, the scene in question is pertinent for an entirely different reason other than confrontation with the criminal. And... well, I don't want to dissect it too much. The ms is pretty much dead to me at the moment anyway. I love it, I'm proud of it, and it may never see print so I'm not thinking…
It's the tricks to lure her out that are the trick for me. You've really got to sell me on that.<br />
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Main thing is, the main protagonist is a male cop, for starters. This is primarily his story. Second to that, the scene in question is pertinent for an entirely different reason other than confrontation with the criminal. And... well, I don't want to dissect it too much. The ms is pretty much dead to me at the moment anyway. I love it, I'm proud of it, and it may never see print so I'm not thinking about it. But it was never meant to be a thriller and that may be a critical difference between how I view it and how others do it. I think books are being pushed to be thrillers these days...and this isn't.<br />
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And, given the options, I think I'd prefer writing the mud wrestling scene!<br />
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My head's all wrapped around the other one these days, but I don't want to talk about WHAT BURNS WITHIN either. Feels like jinxing it somehow. I think your heroine should b…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:139342007-03-27T15:01:57.864ZMarilyn Meredithhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/MarilynMeredith
I think your heroine should best the villian by using her wits. In a book about a female detective or police officer, she should be the one to save herself.
I think your heroine should best the villian by using her wits. In a book about a female detective or police officer, she should be the one to save herself. The Cleaner, by Brett Battles…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:136752007-03-27T03:54:59.067Zspyscribblerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/spyscribbler
The Cleaner, by Brett Battles. It's the only ending I've read in ... three years? four? five? ten? ... that was a complete surprise to me, and yet perfectly obvious once it was revealed. So, so, so cool! <br />
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And Sandra, I hear you. I was appalled when I learned that woman-in-jeopardy was actually a "plot type," and sometimes even referred to as a genre. I hate that passionately. I don't know why, but I do. There's some darn good writing and some great suspense in some of those books!
The Cleaner, by Brett Battles. It's the only ending I've read in ... three years? four? five? ten? ... that was a complete surprise to me, and yet perfectly obvious once it was revealed. So, so, so cool! <br />
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And Sandra, I hear you. I was appalled when I learned that woman-in-jeopardy was actually a "plot type," and sometimes even referred to as a genre. I hate that passionately. I don't know why, but I do. There's some darn good writing and some great suspense in some of those books! Possibly to some degree, but…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:136582007-03-27T03:12:00.443ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
Possibly to some degree, but there are a lot of readers who are exceptionally well read and have more pet peeves than I do. A book I read very early on after I started reading crime fiction is my GAG book for a long list of reasons - one I referenced on David's POV thread today, but also because of FEMJEP.<br />
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And there's a discussion going on right now on 4MA about a series of books and how tired the readers are of the overuse of FEMJEP in the books. It is hard to know how much to discount…
Possibly to some degree, but there are a lot of readers who are exceptionally well read and have more pet peeves than I do. A book I read very early on after I started reading crime fiction is my GAG book for a long list of reasons - one I referenced on David's POV thread today, but also because of FEMJEP.<br />
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And there's a discussion going on right now on 4MA about a series of books and how tired the readers are of the overuse of FEMJEP in the books. It is hard to know how much to discount because of how an author's mind works, but I see similar complaints from readers as well. <br />
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It's very hard when I review because I try to be fair... Sandra, are you taking into a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:136532007-03-27T02:58:05.620ZJoy Calderwoodhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Dragonlily
Sandra, are you taking into account that people who create plots for a living are harder to surprise? Granted, the writer who told me, in detail, how George R.R. Martin's <i>A Song Of Ice and Fire</i> series is going to turn out was a bit ambitious; but in general, you think in plot ramifications and are more likely to be able to predict them than your general audience.<br></br><br></br>(The one I'm sick of is Main Character Endangered By Being Unjustly Suspected of Murder. Once, good, twice, okay, but…
Sandra, are you taking into account that people who create plots for a living are harder to surprise? Granted, the writer who told me, in detail, how George R.R. Martin's <i>A Song Of Ice and Fire</i> series is going to turn out was a bit ambitious; but in general, you think in plot ramifications and are more likely to be able to predict them than your general audience.<br/><br/>(The one I'm sick of is Main Character Endangered By Being Unjustly Suspected of Murder. Once, good, twice, okay, but three thousand times, it's tired!) FEMJEP!! You know the sort of…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:136512007-03-27T02:56:58.362ZSunnie Gillhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/sunniefromoz
FEMJEP!! You know the sort of thing. Our heroine hears a noise in the basement, the power is out, she is wearing tight skirt and stilettos and despite previous attempts on her life, goes down the stairs armed only with her small purse. Flinging book against the wall time.<br />
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Then there is the old with-holding information trick that really annoys me. "I asked her a question and what she told me revealed all". But we're not told what that was. Forget it..<br />
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OH and of course the one where the whole…
FEMJEP!! You know the sort of thing. Our heroine hears a noise in the basement, the power is out, she is wearing tight skirt and stilettos and despite previous attempts on her life, goes down the stairs armed only with her small purse. Flinging book against the wall time.<br />
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Then there is the old with-holding information trick that really annoys me. "I asked her a question and what she told me revealed all". But we're not told what that was. Forget it.. <br />
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OH and of course the one where the whole investigation has gone along in a rather cerebral fashion and suddenly at the end there's a chase and confrontation scene. Doesn't always work for me. <br />
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Yes, there was a book that threw me a giant curve. It was DEAD SIMPLE by Peter James. Stag night party. The prank was putting the groomsman in a coffin and burying him and leaving him for a while. Car is hit by truck and occupants are killed leaving groom stuck in coffin. It was all reading like a plot from an episode of CSI I saw once until around half way, when the author did an abrupt about face and nothing was quite what it seemed. But John, I don't understand…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:135642007-03-27T01:09:42.819ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
But John, I don't understand why the fuck that person thought your ending was bad. Not for the life of me. I mean, I've read a few weak endings, sure, in the span of all books I've read but never even considered your book close to that category. And I'm not just saying that. I mean, you **** people up and, well, uh, you know.<br />
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On a completely different topic, they're filming the Mayerthorpe movie in the village that neighbours mine, so it will be famous on Canadian TV as the stand-in for that.…
But John, I don't understand why the fuck that person thought your ending was bad. Not for the life of me. I mean, I've read a few weak endings, sure, in the span of all books I've read but never even considered your book close to that category. And I'm not just saying that. I mean, you **** people up and, well, uh, you know.<br />
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On a completely different topic, they're filming the Mayerthorpe movie in the village that neighbours mine, so it will be famous on Canadian TV as the stand-in for that. My village remains the hot spot for Brokeback Mountain groupies who want to see where it was filmed. I just want to say up front t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-27:537324:Comment:135552007-03-27T01:00:35.197ZJohn McFetridgehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
I just want to say up front that I mean all this in the friendliest and most helpful way. I don't mean it to be snarky at all. Okay, here goes:<br />
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Sure, she can (and should) just pull the gun and arrest him - she's a cop, it's her job, she does it all the time. There's just no way in the world we believe she can be killed in this scene (in your 10th book, maybe, but even then...), there's no real suspense. In fact, to answer your question about what overused device I'm sick of it's this main…
I just want to say up front that I mean all this in the friendliest and most helpful way. I don't mean it to be snarky at all. Okay, here goes:<br />
<br />
Sure, she can (and should) just pull the gun and arrest him - she's a cop, it's her job, she does it all the time. There's just no way in the world we believe she can be killed in this scene (in your 10th book, maybe, but even then...), there's no real suspense. In fact, to answer your question about what overused device I'm sick of it's this main character in peril thing. Unless you start offing other main characters after page 300, I skip the fight scene and go to the outcome.<br />
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If it never bugged you, it shouldn't bug you now. You're writing a book, not a movie - they're different. You're absolutely right, this effort to make the ending "dramatic" almost always causes it to lose credibility. And because almost never (ever, ever) does the outcome ever differ from what you thought it would be, how can there be any suspense? Unless this is the first book the reader's ever read...<br />
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Of course, you have to keep in mind, I just won a "worst ending" award. Personally, I'm sick of fiend…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-26:537324:Comment:132852007-03-26T19:05:52.471ZRon Smythhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/ronsmyth2005
Personally, I'm sick of fiendish serial killers who seem to exist solely to provide multiple bodies on demand and a climactic scene where the intrepid protagonist is trapped alone with said fiend. To hold my interest in such a book the author must have either a very interesting set of characters or some brand new technique of criminal investigation. Or perhaps both as Jeffery Deaver manages to accomplish. I like to learn something when I read.<br />
It might be something about dog training, or…
Personally, I'm sick of fiendish serial killers who seem to exist solely to provide multiple bodies on demand and a climactic scene where the intrepid protagonist is trapped alone with said fiend. To hold my interest in such a book the author must have either a very interesting set of characters or some brand new technique of criminal investigation. Or perhaps both as Jeffery Deaver manages to accomplish. I like to learn something when I read. <br />
It might be something about dog training, or photography or culture or local history. I just enjoy that added facet of expertise because I know there are entire fields of knowledge about which I know nothing. So teach me. Of course you must also entertain and not give a lecture.