Defining Noir - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T23:58:09Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:151343?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A152016&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAhhh, but then you have to go…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-10-31:537324:Comment:1645792008-10-31T02:38:17.224ZTom Barclayhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/MacCZpilot
Ahhh, but then you have to go on with the blades thru the heart and lungs;<br />
<br />
They got a name for the winners in the world<br />
I want a name when I lose<br />
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide<br />
Call me Deacon Blues<br />
<br />
I cried when I wrote this song<br />
Sue me if I play too long<br />
This brother is free<br />
I'll be what I want to be
Ahhh, but then you have to go on with the blades thru the heart and lungs;<br />
<br />
They got a name for the winners in the world<br />
I want a name when I lose<br />
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide<br />
Call me Deacon Blues<br />
<br />
I cried when I wrote this song<br />
Sue me if I play too long<br />
This brother is free<br />
I'll be what I want to be "Hardboiled = tough, noir = s…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-10-13:537324:Comment:1625242008-10-13T01:04:05.458ZD.R. MacMasterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DuncanRMacMaster
<i>"Hardboiled = tough, noir = screwed."</i><br />
<br />
They can also be tough <i>and</i> screwed in hardboiled noir. ;)<br />
<br />
I guess one way to put it is that noir is all about fate, and that hardboiled is all about trying to <i>control</i> fate through action. Characters in both can still be doomed, but the hardboiled ones will go down swinging.<br />
<br />
That's how I see it.
<i>"Hardboiled = tough, noir = screwed."</i><br />
<br />
They can also be tough <i>and</i> screwed in hardboiled noir. ;)<br />
<br />
I guess one way to put it is that noir is all about fate, and that hardboiled is all about trying to <i>control</i> fate through action. Characters in both can still be doomed, but the hardboiled ones will go down swinging.<br />
<br />
That's how I see it. Whatever the "correct" defini…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-10-12:537324:Comment:1624352008-10-12T18:24:11.374ZLaurie Bhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/LaurieBind
Whatever the "correct" definition of NOIR - an excellent noir movie is "LA Confidential".
Whatever the "correct" definition of NOIR - an excellent noir movie is "LA Confidential". I come late to the game. I th…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-09-22:537324:Comment:1607322008-09-22T02:47:30.304ZTimothy C. Phillipshttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/SouthernCrime
I come late to the game. I think of myself as a writer of "Medium Boiled" novels, so I'll give it a shot. The noir is by definition dark, while the hardboiled attitude can be used in any kind of novel. Noir is a kind of post-reason tragedy. The players are fated, the outcome certain. Or just maybe I've been to too many grad schools; yeah, Jack caught the squeal and got the skinny.
I come late to the game. I think of myself as a writer of "Medium Boiled" novels, so I'll give it a shot. The noir is by definition dark, while the hardboiled attitude can be used in any kind of novel. Noir is a kind of post-reason tragedy. The players are fated, the outcome certain. Or just maybe I've been to too many grad schools; yeah, Jack caught the squeal and got the skinny. Naomi, I think you've got a p…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-20:537324:Comment:1525832008-07-20T18:53:45.425ZC. M. Albrechthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CMAlbrecht
Naomi, I think you've got a perfect concept of noir, and the difference between noir and hard-boiled, although, as you point out, a book can be both up to a point.
Naomi, I think you've got a perfect concept of noir, and the difference between noir and hard-boiled, although, as you point out, a book can be both up to a point. well said, I agree with that…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-20:537324:Comment:1525602008-07-20T14:39:17.296Zcarole gillhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
well said, I agree with that Naomi.<br />
I really do.<br />
You sound as though you are more of an expert than I am!<br />
I get it fuzzy most of the time, blurred between the two--but I like how you've defined it.
well said, I agree with that Naomi.<br />
I really do.<br />
You sound as though you are more of an expert than I am!<br />
I get it fuzzy most of the time, blurred between the two--but I like how you've defined it. I like Donna's words: When I…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-16:537324:Comment:1520162008-07-16T23:38:27.147ZC. M. Albrechthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CMAlbrecht
I like Donna's words: When I wrote my noir, "The Little Mornings" I considered it a noir novel from day one. Someone mentioned that in the end the guy gets fucked, but in my case, the guy fucks himself, something many of us do all the time. Trying to get the book published by describing it as noir, however, evidently wasn't a great idea. It got published as a mainstream novel, and some consider it a mystery, but I stick to my guns. In my mind, while writing it, authors like James Cain and Jim…
I like Donna's words: When I wrote my noir, "The Little Mornings" I considered it a noir novel from day one. Someone mentioned that in the end the guy gets fucked, but in my case, the guy fucks himself, something many of us do all the time. Trying to get the book published by describing it as noir, however, evidently wasn't a great idea. It got published as a mainstream novel, and some consider it a mystery, but I stick to my guns. In my mind, while writing it, authors like James Cain and Jim Thompson seemed to be looking over my shoulder and it was the easiest book I ever wrote. Congrats, Paul, for starting…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-16:537324:Comment:1517162008-07-16T01:08:39.529ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
Congrats, Paul, for starting this thread--and thanks for the kudos.<br />
<br />
Donna Moore, does a far better report on Eddie Muller than I could ever do. In my mind, Eddie is the Pope of Noir.<br />
<br />
Donna is the Queen of satire.<br />
<br />
BTW, I agree with almost everyone who has been quoted so far. Each has a twist on what is what. And yes my definitions are over-simplified. The only complete knowledge of noir comes from Eddie Muller. No offense to anyone else.<br />
<br />
Jack
Congrats, Paul, for starting this thread--and thanks for the kudos.<br />
<br />
Donna Moore, does a far better report on Eddie Muller than I could ever do. In my mind, Eddie is the Pope of Noir.<br />
<br />
Donna is the Queen of satire.<br />
<br />
BTW, I agree with almost everyone who has been quoted so far. Each has a twist on what is what. And yes my definitions are over-simplified. The only complete knowledge of noir comes from Eddie Muller. No offense to anyone else.<br />
<br />
Jack I thought everybody was screw…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-15:537324:Comment:1516422008-07-15T16:38:15.299Zcarole gillhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
I thought everybody was screwed basically in both of them--but I tend to get confused by the distinction as hardboiled being one thing and noir the other.<br />
I understand what I.J.'s saying and I love Jack's definition too--but can't the kinds of women in hardboiled be other things, other than warm hearted hookers?<br />
as women are writing in this genre, this will change a bit I think.<br />
nothing creative should remain static in my opinion.<br />
I'm not envisioning Mike Hammer in lace panties either…
I thought everybody was screwed basically in both of them--but I tend to get confused by the distinction as hardboiled being one thing and noir the other.<br />
I understand what I.J.'s saying and I love Jack's definition too--but can't the kinds of women in hardboiled be other things, other than warm hearted hookers?<br />
as women are writing in this genre, this will change a bit I think.<br />
nothing creative should remain static in my opinion.<br />
I'm not envisioning Mike Hammer in lace panties either btw--FELLAS! this is for some of the men on this forum (not Paul, however)! A very important word has pop…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-07-15:537324:Comment:1516322008-07-15T15:45:33.297ZTom Barclayhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/MacCZpilot
A very important word has popped up - 'existential.' Existential despair is at the core of noir stories. Hope glimmers dim in the distance. The Buddhist curse - whatever it is you want, you can't have it - is in full force.<br />
<br />
Faust's recent MONEY SHOT is a good example.<br />
<br />
I'd be glad of some sweeping generalizations if they'd get the kitty litter off the floor. There's a dustpan available. Kittens! I ask you! They'll play with ANYthing!
A very important word has popped up - 'existential.' Existential despair is at the core of noir stories. Hope glimmers dim in the distance. The Buddhist curse - whatever it is you want, you can't have it - is in full force.<br />
<br />
Faust's recent MONEY SHOT is a good example.<br />
<br />
I'd be glad of some sweeping generalizations if they'd get the kitty litter off the floor. There's a dustpan available. Kittens! I ask you! They'll play with ANYthing!