Does the crime fiction genre have a deeper side?

[carole gill]

I posed this question yesterday in Daniel Hatadi's discussion discussing the differences between literary and crime fiction.
I'd like to pose it here.
Can a story that falls within the crime fiction genre, have within it some other factors--perhaps more crucial insight into some of the characters?
In other words, can it be, in your opinion hard-hitting and be intellectual without in any way slowing the pace or lessening the punch?
Is that possible do you think?
I have the U.S. market in mind here, by the way.
Would love to hear from readers, writers, and innocent bystanders (as well as not such innocent bystanders)!

[Margot Renne Payne]

He sites several references he used--and Gulag was one--which is what made me check it out. Another great historical fiction writer is Mary Doria Russell. Her book A Thread of Grace is based on the resistance movement during WW II, in Italy, which helped save the lives of 80% of the Jews who escaped into Italy.

She also writes amazing science fiction--not what people typically think of as SF. The book group I organize at our library groaned when I selected (they gave me license since we hadn't picked a book by consensus!) The Sparrow--and then loved it so much the group wanted to read the sequel, Children of God. She is also an amazing person and speaker--Russell accepted my invitation to come to our library as part of our author series and talked about the research she did for A Thread of Grace.

[carole gill]

wow! that was great.
I certainly will check up on that.
Interesting that she writes sci fi. Well, sci fi should reach for the stars, right?!
thanks Margot. sounds like my kind of book. really meaninful stuff.

[carole gill]

thanks for that Margot.
I also think it can have a deeper side--exploring more issues than just the crime. that's what I like to hear.
We don't live in a vaccum and any crime that takes place involves people who are real and whose lives are complex, showing that and reading that I think is so much more satisfying.
great reply.

[Dan Coleman]

I would distinguish between literary and crime fiction this way: If I extracted from the story all mention of the crime and its investigation, and still read the book through to the end because the writing was, in my opinion, excellent and the characters engrossing, then it's literary for me. I would have found a separate, deeper meaning in it. If I couldn't, then it's just a crime story.

But, yes, the crime, itself, is like a bare Christmas tree; it's just a tree. But if it's decorated, then it has a deeper meaning.

So, yes, Carole, you can add what you want to it until it's more than just a crime story.

I guess.

[carole gill]

thanks for that.
I agree with what you say. I suppose in thinking about it, I could remove the crime and it might stand without it. hmm. you've given me a great deal to think about!
The central plot though is the crime (s) --the killer's motivations--and the Detective's who is hunting him.
But there are other factors too which I hope give meaning to the plot--a lot of meaning.
I started this (a few months ago) with my main characters and the simplest of plots.
I found I got to know them so well--that the story evolved through them really.

[Jeff Ross]

Pelecanos comes to mind. Hard Revolution certainly fits the bill. Burke, yes, sometimes. But his works are mysteries first. They follow a certain trail each time and though the language has more depth than a lot of the thrillers out there, they are still at their core mystery driven. Lehane does things just slightly differently enough to make the crime pull a reader through but not really be the focus.
By literary/deeper do you mean a story that focuses on character rather than the crime?

[carole gill]

I guess I do. Yes, the characters more than the crime!
well said.
I suppose that's it.
And what I was afraid of was doing that--having the story really focused more on the characters than the crime.
of course as i see it, the crime is the core happening and the characters are all stuck on spokes that extend from that core--
but yes, the characters more than the crime.

[Elizabeth Zelvin]

Sounds like the key is defining our terms. I don't think dark is synonymous with deep, and I deny vehemently that every traditional is a cozy. Example, hmmm: read Ken Bruen and Jason Starr's SLIDE, then read Dorothy L Sayers's GAUDY NIGHT. I know which I think is as serious as any literary novel. :)

[carole gill]

I'm terribly sorry you didn't think I had defined my terms.
I thought I did. oh well. sorry.
Also, I didn't say that I thought traditional mysteries were cozies.
so please don't feel vehement, there's really no need.
Having said that, there is nothing wrong with cozies.
In any case, thank you very much for your reply.

[I. J. Parker]

Yes. I think I'm with you on that. Though mind you, Bruen's Jack Taylor novels are literary, perhaps more so than Dorothy Sayers'.

[sue neale]

I have looked through the discussion and fournd it interesting. My main interest is British and European crime fiction, particularly French. In some European countries, crime fiction is seen as a way in which to criticise the culture, politics and society in a country as well as being a ripping yarn. In France they even have a particular vein of crime fiction - the polar, or neo-polar. However, crime fiction, even though it can be written with great style (in literary terms) has often been seen as being outside what is defined as literature and therefore ignored by the critics. Therefore allowing writers to be able more easily to criticise the status quo.

I am involved with a European crime fiction website - Europolar, that aims to encourage a better understanding of this sort of writing. I would love to find more of it written in English but in Britain say, compared to France, it seems that that society is less willing to work together as a group to resond negatively to the state than France - a country defined to some extents by its various revolutions.

There is lots of good French (and European) crime fiction in translation which shows this tendency for fiction - look out for authors like Daeninckx - who dig up some of France's darker historical moments, or Pennac - who can find the gruesomely funny side to them. I am particularly keen on Fred Vargas who writes very popular crime novels with quirky investigators with a style that has elements of Chandler and Simenon, but also is very much her own.

So I would say that the best crime fiction should have individuals who have something to say about the world around them, corrupt or otherwise, and give the reader insight into topics they might have taken for granted.

Hope this helps.

sue neale

[carole gill]

I agree with you.
I know that the most popular television show in France is a program about books. So that says a great deal.
If I could, I would live there and learn fluent French, not necessarily in that order, and I'd go tomorrow!
Thank you very much for responding and for mentioning those authors too. Can't wait to read them!
The website you're involved in sounds terrific. thanks for mentioning that as well!
And finally, your final thoughts in your reply--spot on!
Yes, I agree that the best crime fiction should say something about the world we all live in--and it should also give the reader insight into so much. I think of a book like Crime and Punishment--surely not just a crime novel--or is it? Yes, it is only it's a novel about a crime but so very much more besides. Afterall, what isn't it about?!
again, thanks very much, Sue.