The fine line between obvious and dumb - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T16:48:32Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:27585?x=1&id=537324%3ATopic%3A27585&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis doesn't preclude using t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-26:537324:Comment:287572007-04-26T21:32:27.327ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
This doesn't preclude using the word "motherfucker" in unimportant paragraphs too, I hope?
This doesn't preclude using the word "motherfucker" in unimportant paragraphs too, I hope? John, see, this is my point.…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-26:537324:Comment:287552007-04-26T21:29:05.327ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
John, see, this is my point. You assumed the gun is a literal gun and not pre-Socratic solipsism. I'm sure that if you had, everything would have made perfect sense.<br />
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Donna - I'm afraid I didn't write anything about shit, so if you're up to your neck it in, it's entirely your own doing.
John, see, this is my point. You assumed the gun is a literal gun and not pre-Socratic solipsism. I'm sure that if you had, everything would have made perfect sense.<br />
<br />
Donna - I'm afraid I didn't write anything about shit, so if you're up to your neck it in, it's entirely your own doing. Why do I feel as though I'm u…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-26:537324:Comment:287302007-04-26T20:02:34.508ZDonna Moorehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DonnaMoore
Why do I feel as though I'm up to my neck in goat shit?
Why do I feel as though I'm up to my neck in goat shit? I didn't want to have to say…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-26:537324:Comment:286302007-04-26T14:04:11.611ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
I didn't want to have to say this, but you've both got the wrong end of the stick. Y'see, all the characters are merely cyphers. Johnson represents the undereducated proletariat, Mary is bourgeoisie decadence, the dodo is avarice, the door is the World Bank's policy of forcing third-world countries to open their borders to competition during the final decades of the 21st Century, while the sofa is a metaphor for missold life insurance. I could explain the rest of the symbolism, but I'm afraid…
I didn't want to have to say this, but you've both got the wrong end of the stick. Y'see, all the characters are merely cyphers. Johnson represents the undereducated proletariat, Mary is bourgeoisie decadence, the dodo is avarice, the door is the World Bank's policy of forcing third-world countries to open their borders to competition during the final decades of the 21st Century, while the sofa is a metaphor for missold life insurance. I could explain the rest of the symbolism, but I'm afraid you're simply not up to this level of literary sophistication. Vincent that is much much cle…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-26:537324:Comment:285182007-04-26T06:19:58.975ZDonna Moorehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DonnaMoore
Vincent that is much much clearer. I now just have a couple of questions. Who IS Mary, and why is she always on the other side of the door? If Johnson is a fish, how does he breathe and why is he not as dead as the dodo? In fact, if the dodo had eaten Johnson the fish the dodo would probably still be alive. And...errrrr....this man and woman in straitjackets.What are their names? Actually, I think you should just give up the whole Johnson/Mary/partner/gunshot idea because it's obviously…
Vincent that is much much clearer. I now just have a couple of questions. Who IS Mary, and why is she always on the other side of the door? If Johnson is a fish, how does he breathe and why is he not as dead as the dodo? In fact, if the dodo had eaten Johnson the fish the dodo would probably still be alive. And...errrrr....this man and woman in straitjackets.What are their names? Actually, I think you should just give up the whole Johnson/Mary/partner/gunshot idea because it's obviously confusing you too much. That's probably true as well.…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-25:537324:Comment:283982007-04-25T21:14:17.975ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
That's probably true as well. Like Pepper says above, if someone has a tendancy to skim read, they may miss details or, as Anne suggests, if they overlook the middle bits of long paragraphs, then they're going to get confused sooner or later, however clear you make a particular scene. The only remedy to that, I guess, is to grab their attention so deftly that they really do hang on every word.
That's probably true as well. Like Pepper says above, if someone has a tendancy to skim read, they may miss details or, as Anne suggests, if they overlook the middle bits of long paragraphs, then they're going to get confused sooner or later, however clear you make a particular scene. The only remedy to that, I guess, is to grab their attention so deftly that they really do hang on every word. True. Even the most attentive…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-25:537324:Comment:283962007-04-25T21:09:24.394ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
True. Even the most attentive reader could miss something if they're reading on a train or keep being distracted by a partner who asks questions only when they're engrossed in a book. I know if a line in a book sets me off thinking, usually about one of my own stories, I'll find I've got through several paragraphs without noticing any of the words - though I go back to where I lost the plot in that case.
True. Even the most attentive reader could miss something if they're reading on a train or keep being distracted by a partner who asks questions only when they're engrossed in a book. I know if a line in a book sets me off thinking, usually about one of my own stories, I'll find I've got through several paragraphs without noticing any of the words - though I go back to where I lost the plot in that case. Okay, for John and Donna...…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-25:537324:Comment:283942007-04-25T21:02:29.663ZVincent Holland-Keenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/fiskerton
Okay, for John and Donna...<br />
<br />
Johnson stepped over his dead partner, then he stepped over the dead dodo lying next to the man he'd worked with for twenty years. The dodo explained a lot. It explained what Professor Southfield had found in that iceberg off Talulah Sound. It explained what 'unidentified artifact' had been stolen from the musuem and it explained those fuzzy pictures of local Mob Boss, Boris Maloney. If Mary wanted to get her own back on hubby Maloney, stealing his…
Okay, for John and Donna...<br />
<br />
Johnson stepped over his dead partner, then he stepped over the dead dodo lying next to the man he'd worked with for twenty years. The dodo explained a lot. It explained what Professor Southfield had found in that iceberg off Talulah Sound. It explained what 'unidentified artifact' had been stolen from the musuem and it explained those fuzzy pictures of local Mob Boss, Boris Maloney. If Mary wanted to get her own back on hubby Maloney, stealing his criminally-acquired, defrosted dodo would be the way to do it.<br />
<br />
But now Mary had to pay. Johnson stepped toward the bedroom door.<br />
<br />
Mary heard the footsteps. She knew death was coming for her. She'd changed her underwear twice already, but it was no good. When this stranger put a bullet in her head, she knew she'd be thinking of a coroner cutting the panties off her corpse and noting she'd had carrots for breakfast.<br />
<br />
But the footsteps stopped short of the door. The handle didn't turn. Had destiny put her fate on hold? Or should that be fate put her destiny on hold? Whatever, it was curiousity that lead her over to the door and through it she could hear whispered voices.<br />
<br />
"I still don't understand the dodo."<br />
<br />
"I don't understand these unattributed quotes. Who's saying this? I don't know and I'm the one saying it."<br />
<br />
Johnson was in the room with the voices. For a moment he thought they were the voices in his head, the voices that tormented him constantly, but then he realised they were coming from behind the sofa.<br />
<br />
"Behind the sofa? Surely that's a matter of perspective. From my perspective I'm in front of the sofa and Johnson is behind it."<br />
<br />
"Have you ever had mushrooms with goat cheese? I'm not sure where either of those things came from, but that doesn't seem to matter in this story."<br />
<br />
Johnson approached the sofa. He'd heard such inanity so many times before. He'd always assumed that was because he was crazy, but now he thought about it, the voices had only started after him and his partner paid Professor Southfield a visit at the mental asylum. The poor guy had a psychotic break after his prize specimen went missing. Even more unfortunately, he burned to death when the asylum caught fire. Johnson should have been more careful when throwing those matches around, but then Maloney wouldn't have paid him his bonus.<br />
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Still, after the fire, there had been reports some inmates had escaped. Johnson held his gun ready as he dragged aside the sofa. A man and a woman were revealed squatting down in the corner. They were still in their straitjackets.<br />
<br />
"He's a man! Who'd a thunk it? I thought Johnson was a goat. No one said he was a man. He could have been a coy carp for all I knew," said the woman.<br />
<br />
"I thought we were supposed to be the goats," replied the man. "Though if we are, it does beg the question where this goat cheese came from."<br />
<br />
The voices in Johnson's head had been made flesh. They had been following around, driving him mad, but now they were here, babbling away in front of him. Johnson knew you couldn't silence a voice in your head, but a voice with arms and legs and a body... Johnson knew how to deal with that.<br />
<br />
Mary heard another series of gunshots. The whispering voices went silent. She conceded that listening through a door left a degree of ambiguity as to what must have happened in the next room, but as she made an exit via the window and down the fire escape, she hoped those voices weren't going to be talking any more, because even in the snatches heard through that door, she'd decided the owners were really irritating. You can't explain it---if the…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-25:537324:Comment:283672007-04-25T19:29:39.814ZDennis Leppanenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/TheWarbler
You can't explain it---if the reader doesn't <i>feel</i> it, you'll most like lose them at some other juncture. I knew Johnson bought it...<br />
<br />
Dennis
You can't explain it---if the reader doesn't <i>feel</i> it, you'll most like lose them at some other juncture. I knew Johnson bought it...<br />
<br />
Dennis Personally, I think this is a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-04-25:537324:Comment:283562007-04-25T19:14:20.863ZPepper Smithhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Reefrunner
Personally, I think this is as much a function of how fast the reader is going than whether or not your prose is perfectly clear on what's going on in the story. I've had a reader come back to me and tell me that I needed to put a particular scene in as explanation for something that happened, only to have me point her directly to the scene, already present in her copy of the story.<br />
<br />
I've also had a reader thank me for not clubbing her over the head with the obvious, and allowing her to use her…
Personally, I think this is as much a function of how fast the reader is going than whether or not your prose is perfectly clear on what's going on in the story. I've had a reader come back to me and tell me that I needed to put a particular scene in as explanation for something that happened, only to have me point her directly to the scene, already present in her copy of the story.<br />
<br />
I've also had a reader thank me for not clubbing her over the head with the obvious, and allowing her to use her own brain to collect the clues and figure things out. That really is one of the purposes of mystery writing, that game between the reader and the author to see if the reader figures it out before the end.<br />
<br />
There are some things you can't regulate, and that's the attention your reader gives to the story. If I find I've missed something when reading, I'll usually go back and see if I can find where it was mentioned. But maybe that's because I'm a writer and I expect that the explanation is there, I just missed it the first time through.<br />
<br />
It always astonishes me when I've written something that I think is so blindingly obvious that I've given away the ending, and people glide right past it without understanding what I've given them. But again, that may be because I know the story so well that it stands out to me.<br />
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In general, though, I try to trust the intelligence of the reader. They're on the hunt for clues. They're smart enough to find them. And the example you gave was clear enough that the reader should have gotten it. If they didn't, they weren't paying enough attention.