Are you a writer or an artist? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T15:55:00Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:48830?x=1&id=537324%3ATopic%3A48830&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI'm not quite sure if this is…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-07-05:537324:Comment:528042007-07-05T20:27:59.791ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
I'm not quite sure if this is an observation or a question.<br />
<br />
As an observation, I think it is accurate--at least, accurate to my own observations. There are a lot of us out here who are grinding it out and doing the best we can do. Not from a money standpoint, but from the standpoint that this is what we want to do.<br />
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Would we take the money? Of course.<br />
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Big bucks to protitute our talent? I'm not sure prostitution is the way write our best, but I'd have to think about it. Big bucks could give me…
I'm not quite sure if this is an observation or a question.<br />
<br />
As an observation, I think it is accurate--at least, accurate to my own observations. There are a lot of us out here who are grinding it out and doing the best we can do. Not from a money standpoint, but from the standpoint that this is what we want to do.<br />
<br />
Would we take the money? Of course.<br />
<br />
Big bucks to protitute our talent? I'm not sure prostitution is the way write our best, but I'd have to think about it. Big bucks could give me more peace to write what I want to write, but it might also make me totally lose sight of what I want to accomplish.<br />
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The point? I'm not an artist. I'm a writer who does his best and hopes a lot of people like it. I echo.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-27:537324:Comment:510972007-06-27T01:45:51.403ZOlen Steinhauerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/olensteinhauer
I echo.
I echo. Evil Kev, I think the "artist…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-27:537324:Comment:510952007-06-27T01:23:07.247ZOlen Steinhauerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/olensteinhauer
Evil Kev, I think the "artist" you're thinking of is probably the unpublished writer/artist. I spent years in Austin, TX, as an unpublished "artist" who went home every night and wrote. My friends were "artists" without galleries who smoked dope and passed out but did no work. But they were artists by their own definition, which means that by now (years later) they're probably working in restaurants still. That is, by "artist" you really mean "poser".<br />
<br />
I suggest not drawing the line too heavily…
Evil Kev, I think the "artist" you're thinking of is probably the unpublished writer/artist. I spent years in Austin, TX, as an unpublished "artist" who went home every night and wrote. My friends were "artists" without galleries who smoked dope and passed out but did no work. But they were artists by their own definition, which means that by now (years later) they're probably working in restaurants still. That is, by "artist" you really mean "poser".<br />
<br />
I suggest not drawing the line too heavily though. I do think writing is an art, and that it should strive to be transformative in the best artistic sense, like a Rembrandt. It must also have the commercial power to reach the masses, because art without an audience is only half-perfected. Being a novelist, or artist, doesn't make one better than others; it just means s/he's a little more patient than most people, because most people believe they have a novel in them but never actually sit down to write it. And in truth some novels do take a long time to write. I'm frustrated that, contractually, I only have a year to write each of my books. Ideally, I'd take three--Le Carre takes 3 years, in general, for his books; why can't I?<br />
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But your essential point--"writers write"--is absolutely spot-on. Those who treat the writing as a secondary pastime won't stay in the business long. Ken is a great writer, and though he keeps to a publishing schedule (though, admittedly, his books average around 40,000 words and he writes them within a half year), he fits the "artist" character because, as he admits, he writes to stay alive, to push off the bad shit life has thrown at him. He writes out of emotional necessity.<br />
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It's a business, sure, but those who marry the artist and writer labels are those who believe writing is serious fucking business. I know I do. Write untruthfully, or without your wits about you, and a serious miscarriage of justice has been committed. I'll happily go past deadline if my book is wrong and I can see the right way to edit it. And even though they're businesspeople, good editors actually feel the same way. They'd rather the job be done right than done quickly, because when it's done wrong it loses them money every time. I'm a writer and I write. Sal…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-25:537324:Comment:507412007-06-25T17:57:37.904ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I'm a writer and I write. Sales matter only in the sense that they make it easier to get future books into print. Writers (if they are serious about the craft) are artists. I know, because I used to paint and the involvement in the creative process is very similar. Artists can't stop doing what they do. Writers work through innumerable revisions because they are driven to perfect their work. This is not an economical use of time and has nothing to do with selling as many books as possible in a…
I'm a writer and I write. Sales matter only in the sense that they make it easier to get future books into print. Writers (if they are serious about the craft) are artists. I know, because I used to paint and the involvement in the creative process is very similar. Artists can't stop doing what they do. Writers work through innumerable revisions because they are driven to perfect their work. This is not an economical use of time and has nothing to do with selling as many books as possible in a given year. The demands of publishers often interfere with the intentions of writers. In the mystery genre, there are both kinds of authors, those who write because it is a passion for them, and those who write to make money or gain fame. I'm a writer. I simply wish t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-22:537324:Comment:502472007-06-22T18:52:08.858ZA. C. Ellishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/acellis
I'm a writer. I simply wish to write entertaining and fun stories. Beyond that... nothing.<br />
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I'll leave the determination of what is art to future generations. If it lasts for any amount of time, chances are it has at least some artistic content. After all, isn't what is truly art simply what is universal, over time?<br />
<br />
Or not.<br />
<br />
Al<br />
<br />
--<br />
A. C. Ellis - Science Fiction & Mystery/Suspense<br />
Receive two FREE short stories by sending e-mail with "free short stories" in subject line…
I'm a writer. I simply wish to write entertaining and fun stories. Beyond that... nothing.<br />
<br />
I'll leave the determination of what is art to future generations. If it lasts for any amount of time, chances are it has at least some artistic content. After all, isn't what is truly art simply what is universal, over time?<br />
<br />
Or not.<br />
<br />
Al<br />
<br />
--<br />
A. C. Ellis - Science Fiction & Mystery/Suspense<br />
Receive two FREE short stories by sending e-mail with "free short stories" in subject line to<br />
a.ellis@att.net<br />
<br />
NOTE: E-mails neither sold nor given away.<br />
<br />
Or visit my Web site at<br />
<a href="http://www.acellis.net">http://www.acellis.net</a> Thanks Kev. Glad you enjoyed…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:494402007-06-19T14:56:28.274ZChrista Fausthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/faustfatale
Thanks Kev. Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks Kev. Glad you enjoyed it. Christa
Thank you for your c…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:493572007-06-19T02:07:18.660ZEvil Kevhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EvilKev
Christa<br />
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Thank you for your comment. You gave a practical example what I trying to say in my rather incoherent way.<br />
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I have nothing to add except I have really enjoyed what I have seen of MONEY SHOT.<br />
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I look forward to adding it to my Hard Case collection.
Christa<br />
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Thank you for your comment. You gave a practical example what I trying to say in my rather incoherent way.<br />
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I have nothing to add except I have really enjoyed what I have seen of MONEY SHOT.<br />
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I look forward to adding it to my Hard Case collection. Jon
I am not suggesting that…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:493542007-06-19T01:54:37.268ZEvil Kevhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EvilKev
Jon<br />
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I am not suggesting that a writer mass produce product. I am suggesting that too many authors don’t seem to enjoy writing but write as an end to a means (perhaps quitting their hated job)<br />
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From your comment, I see you are working on two projects currently. I hope these are both something you are enjoying.<br />
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If an author hates writing, then it can be a most loathsome job. No vacations, long lunches, coffee breaks or co-workers to share the load. Being self-motivated is a discipline few…
Jon<br />
<br />
I am not suggesting that a writer mass produce product. I am suggesting that too many authors don’t seem to enjoy writing but write as an end to a means (perhaps quitting their hated job)<br />
<br />
From your comment, I see you are working on two projects currently. I hope these are both something you are enjoying.<br />
<br />
If an author hates writing, then it can be a most loathsome job. No vacations, long lunches, coffee breaks or co-workers to share the load. Being self-motivated is a discipline few have.<br />
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But I have an example I hope will explain my point better.<br />
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I am a computer programmer and I started doing it back when it was a poorly respected profession. Then the dot-com bubble appeared and people who had no interest in the job flooded in based on reports of high salaries, massive signing bonuses and easy work.<br />
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Were they any good at it? Very seldom and they quickly became disillusioned. It was a job and a not rewarding one at that. The satisfaction had to be self-created.<br />
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For me, I enjoyed the work and creating software was being a magician. There was nothing and then there was something, a program that made someone’s job easier.<br />
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Being a writer is very similar. If you don’t enjoy it and get self-satisfaction, it is just another terrible job.<br />
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My point about the pulp era authors was that they combined the love of the work with determination. So they wrote. If an author writes one book in their entire career and it brings them great satisfaction, then that’s great.<br />
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If they write a book because they expect to be on Oprah the following week with dump truck of money coming, well, there is a rude surprise coming. I have the utmost respect fro…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:493532007-06-19T01:24:53.656ZEvil Kevhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EvilKev
I have the utmost respect from your opinion Dianne, because it is found on experience that few on the forum can match.<br />
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But by the same token, I must reiterate that my belief that good work will always find a publisher.<br />
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The number of publishers in the US alone is quite large. I had an estimate some time ago, but I can’t find it.<br />
<br />
If you are willing to forego an advance, accept reduced distribution of the book or accept no promotion at all, there are many small respectable publishers who are…
I have the utmost respect from your opinion Dianne, because it is found on experience that few on the forum can match.<br />
<br />
But by the same token, I must reiterate that my belief that good work will always find a publisher.<br />
<br />
The number of publishers in the US alone is quite large. I had an estimate some time ago, but I can’t find it.<br />
<br />
If you are willing to forego an advance, accept reduced distribution of the book or accept no promotion at all, there are many small respectable publishers who are hungry for good work.<br />
<br />
But most writers would be shocked to even hear a suggestion like that. After all if you aren’t with a large New York publisher and got a high five or six figure advance, how good can you really be?<br />
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That is a big part of the problem in itself. I recall a writer I spoke with who told me they couldn’t get published. I asked where they tried. They had a list of the biggest publishers in New York. I asked if they considered a number of good publishers in the rest of the US and in the UK. Their answer was no. They wanted New York or nothing. So they got nothing.<br />
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For the pulp writers, this was a moot discussion. There were very few opportunities to make huge money writing. They accepted this and wrote stories they enjoyed.<br />
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Here are a few examples NY Times ‘Writers on Writing’ series:<br />
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<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/library/books/032999mcbain-writing.html">She Was Blond. She Was in Trouble. And She Paid 3 Cents a Word.</a><br />
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<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/arts/29WEST.html?ex=1182225600&en=30136dbddc001461&ei=5070">A Pseudonym Returns From an Alter-Ego Trip, With New Tales to Tell</a><br />
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The theme here is they enjoy what they do. It was not about six figure advances, or important publisher parties. It was about getting the story in print.<br />
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It is sad but the vast majority of people will never make much money writing.<br />
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But Dianne, please don’t assume I can’t understand the frustration of rejection letters, minimal returns on the effort put into a creating a book and the exhaustion of working hard and wondering if it is all worth while.<br />
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My point is about what drives an author? Is it money or the love of the work? I personally have written a dozen short stories, two plays and am a third done a manuscript. Most of this has not been published or were published for no payment.<br />
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I get up and write between three to fifteen hundred words a day on my manuscript. When it is done, I will send it to a number of publishers for consideration. But I will write another while that one is under consideration.<br />
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I understand the challenges that will be faced and the sacrifices that will need to be made. My wife is a highly dedicated and talented writer and I have seen first hand what she has to face.<br />
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I will do it because I enjoy it. And that’s why I will write tomorrow and the day after. And that does not make me an artist. It only means I’m willing to work for what I want. I've really been wanting to c…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-18:537324:Comment:491812007-06-18T02:56:40.230ZChrista Fausthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/faustfatale
I've really been wanting to comment on this thread, but I've been on another crazy deadline.<br />
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I'm a working writer who (just barely) makes a living at it. I've written nine novels under my own name, some of which are products of passion and some of which are strictly day job material. That being said, I love my day job. I write tie-ins and novelizations and as silly as they may be, I have a ton of fun writing them. I don't fuss and fret, polishing every sentence to perfection. The deadlines are…
I've really been wanting to comment on this thread, but I've been on another crazy deadline.<br />
<br />
I'm a working writer who (just barely) makes a living at it. I've written nine novels under my own name, some of which are products of passion and some of which are strictly day job material. That being said, I love my day job. I write tie-ins and novelizations and as silly as they may be, I have a ton of fun writing them. I don't fuss and fret, polishing every sentence to perfection. The deadlines are too tight. I just rip through them and shamelessly enjoy myself along the way. I like to think that feeling of fun will carry through to the reader.<br />
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I don't think of myself as an artist. I'm proud to call myself a pulp writer in the classic sense of the term. I'm not saying I would quit writing if there were no paycheck. I'm just saying I probably wouldn't write SNAKES ON A PLANE.<br />
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I also think it's perfectly possible to have a passion for the art of writing and still be realistic about making a living. There are plenty of graphic artists or studio musicians who balance art and commerce all the time. Many writers have day jobs and that doesn't take away from their artistic brilliance. My day job happens to be writing and I've never had trouble separating it from the heartblood writing. I have no idea if my "real" writing is art or just more lovingly-crafted pulp. I'll leave that to the readers to decide.