Finding a Positive Way Forward - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T22:49:52Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:69003?id=537324%3ATopic%3A69003&xg_raw_resources=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=nosome authors I consider myste…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698622007-09-06T18:58:21.611ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
<i>some authors I consider mystery writers are actually showing up in the fiction bays</i><br />
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That's a constant in Canada. Thrillers tend to be shelved general fiction, but it gets tricky. Lee Child - general fiction. Ken Bruen, Dennis Lehane - mystery. Since the fiction sections here tend to be huge and sprawling, I seldom go through them the way I do mystery. Even in mystery I rarely have the time to go shelf to shelf and pull stuff off and cover the whole section. I do it in chunks over time.…
<i>some authors I consider mystery writers are actually showing up in the fiction bays</i><br />
<br />
That's a constant in Canada. Thrillers tend to be shelved general fiction, but it gets tricky. Lee Child - general fiction. Ken Bruen, Dennis Lehane - mystery. Since the fiction sections here tend to be huge and sprawling, I seldom go through them the way I do mystery. Even in mystery I rarely have the time to go shelf to shelf and pull stuff off and cover the whole section. I do it in chunks over time. But I never do that in general fiction, so I need to already be looking for a book that's there to find it.<br />
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And James Patterson has his own section of shelves here. I'm new to this too, even mor…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698422007-09-06T17:04:42.888ZMaryann Mercerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/catsmom
I'm new to this too, even more so since I'm unpublished, but I too note that the mystery section in my local B&N has been given more space, and that some authors I consider mystery writers are actually showing up in the fiction bays. As a bookseller, I talk books whenever I can, and I make recommendations as often as possible. It's also been fun to patronize some of the independent book stores as I travel. Word of mouth is always a great way to reach other readers. We all do it too. As for…
I'm new to this too, even more so since I'm unpublished, but I too note that the mystery section in my local B&N has been given more space, and that some authors I consider mystery writers are actually showing up in the fiction bays. As a bookseller, I talk books whenever I can, and I make recommendations as often as possible. It's also been fun to patronize some of the independent book stores as I travel. Word of mouth is always a great way to reach other readers. We all do it too. As for commercials, I've seen James Patterson's books hyped on TV. Maybe we could start a petition to convince C-span 2 to give over some time to writers of mystery in addition to their normal sometimes rather dry broadcasts. You know, the one thing I've learned from other authors is that giving up is not an option. Moving ahead (even if it means two steps back) is the key. Color me optimistic, but I believe genre is what keeps people balanced in this otherwise unbalanced world. Hello Barbara - at the moment…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698412007-09-06T16:50:53.054ZRoger Newburyhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/TrubbleBrewin
Hello Barbara - at the moment I'm in the process of moving (or getting ready to move) from one home to another, I'm sure you know how expensive that can be, but also, I'm unemployed at present. The other factor is of course that having sent out manuscripts in the past, and either got them back via return postage, a little frayed or 'worse-for-wear', or not at all... I would have to re-print new copies, and as I have been advised before to send out a manuscript to more than one agent at a time,…
Hello Barbara - at the moment I'm in the process of moving (or getting ready to move) from one home to another, I'm sure you know how expensive that can be, but also, I'm unemployed at present. The other factor is of course that having sent out manuscripts in the past, and either got them back via return postage, a little frayed or 'worse-for-wear', or not at all... I would have to re-print new copies, and as I have been advised before to send out a manuscript to more than one agent at a time, I'm sure you'd agree the costs can mount up!<br />
Besides which, the two main novels I have decided to work with, are pretty 'old' and need some serious 'mechanical' upgrades, to bring them up to spec., as well as up to a far better standard.<br />
As Sandra says, read more and you'll improve, by seeing how other authors' work has developed. I mjust say that since I began reading Mark Billingham's Tom Thorne series of crime stories, I can understand how my own writing style lacks conviction, and why lit agents have turned me down.<br />
I think I still have a lot to learn about writing stories, no matter how good I think my work is, I need to study harder, to find my weaknesses and make the necessary changes.<br />
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Once I've moved home, and settled in, and got myself organised -(that'll be the day!) - any spare time I have once I find myself a new job, will be spent finding appropriate writing courses, reviewing my stories and after making a general enquiry with lit. agents, I shall be sending my scripts out frantically!<br />
My one consolation, is that I do feel that my Sherlock Holmes Comedy Crime stage plays do have potential, and I have two play publishing companies preparing to evaluate one of my pieces; although they both told me it would be some time before I receive a response... good or bad! Still, at least they're showing interest, that's better than nothing.<br />
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Thank you for your interest in my problem. I don't understand - why woul…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698402007-09-06T16:20:25.470ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
I don't understand - why would your finances prevent you from sending material to an agent? Do you mean you're too busy at work to write or revise? because you shouldn't have to pay more than postage and an SASE to query an agent.
I don't understand - why would your finances prevent you from sending material to an agent? Do you mean you're too busy at work to write or revise? because you shouldn't have to pay more than postage and an SASE to query an agent. Hi Roger. No, not completely…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698372007-09-06T16:02:46.969ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
Hi Roger. No, not completely flippant. But thanks for further clarifying your thoughts.<br />
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We reverted back to form rejection letters because of people who decided to argue over them. When we started I was determined to do things differently - after all, I'm sympathetic to writers and what they go through and the frustration of form rejection letters. A few issues along and I was sympathetic to editors. I mean, I could do a whole other side rant, about the consistent failure of people to follow…
Hi Roger. No, not completely flippant. But thanks for further clarifying your thoughts.<br />
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We reverted back to form rejection letters because of people who decided to argue over them. When we started I was determined to do things differently - after all, I'm sympathetic to writers and what they go through and the frustration of form rejection letters. A few issues along and I was sympathetic to editors. I mean, I could do a whole other side rant, about the consistent failure of people to follow and apply submission guidelines, to even spellcheck their work...<br />
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The danger spots that open up are the cost of nurturing. This is something Creme de la Crime has done differently - tried to nurture a few potential authors along. But there is a strong recommendation against publishers who also offer agenting services or editing services, particularly if those come with a fee. If you ever did have the chance to set up your company that's something you'd need to look at carefully.<br />
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There are a few levels of rejection letters:<br />
Level 1: Standard/Form - usually means not the same ballpark<br />
Level 2: A standard letter with a personal note attached with suggestions - maybe you're in the same ballpark, but not quite playing the same game... sort of like CFL rules vs NFL rules...<br />
Level 3: Personal rejection letter. Close.<br />
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It's a very generic interpretation, and you can get them at all levels of querying. Short stories, trying to find an agent, submitting to a publisher. And getting one does not necessarily mean the work doesn't have merit.<br />
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So far, my favourite rejection letter is the one based on a partial manuscript that was incredibly complimentary, but they rejected based on something they said I did with the book, that I didn't do with the story, and since they had a partial I don't even know where they got the idea. But that just goes to show, you can be rejected for what you do, what you don't do and for what people think you're going to do.<br />
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The best advice I was ever given for helping me with my writing:<br />
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Keep reading, Ian Rankin<br />
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This is the best way to learn structure and form, to assess why something works and how it's done. I've taken a creative writing diploma, where they try to get you to go through a checklist with your work. It didn't work for me, in part because I'm not a plotter and they can't teach you to intuitively develop a story while writing it.<br />
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I struggled a lot with short stories, and still do. Short stories are the hardest thing to write, because they require exceptionally narrow focus and economy with words. And with them, I can really see the progression from rough around the edges to smoothing out with the odd bump to starting to flow.<br />
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I also paid for a ms critique, early on, from a British author, and after that, when I picked up books to read, it really started to click.<br />
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There is an apprenticeship to a writing career, and I think one of the biggest holdbacks for many talented writers is ability or willingness to put money into it. (I'm not saying all this for you, just generally, based on my experience.) You want to be anything else you expect to take courses and invest in your career. For some reason (here anyway) there remains this bizarre belief that with writing and acting, you can just be 'discovered' and be an overnight success. People talk about muses and writer's block, like we channel stories because we've been divinely selected to be a writer. Simply put, writing is work, and sometimes it's damn hard work. In my experience with rejecting short stories, there have definitely been a few times I've wanted to suggest the writer open their eyes while typing.<br />
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Anyway, none of us is perfect, we're all at different points on our journey, we just keep plugging along, learning and growing. And no matter how many manuscripts I have accepted for publication, I expect I'll still be saying that. Most authors I know say every book gets harder, not easier... The online community of reade…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698322007-09-06T15:28:28.846ZPepper Smithhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Reefrunner
The online community of readers and authors might be small, but it's a place for word-of-mouth to start spreading outward from. Everyone's got a life outside what they spend on the internet.
The online community of readers and authors might be small, but it's a place for word-of-mouth to start spreading outward from. Everyone's got a life outside what they spend on the internet. It's not impossible, it's jus…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:698242007-09-06T14:59:27.532ZElizabeth Zelvinhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/lizzelvin
It's not impossible, it's just very, very difficult, and along with talent, persistence, and luck, I agree that a positive attitude and willingness to be creative and take a few risks is needed. I'm flying this morning because I found out that Death Will Get You Sober is listed for preorder on Amazon, even though it won't be out till April. I just told several hundred MySpace friends about it--and they're not all writers who have dozens of friends' books on their shopping lists (pleeeeease buy…
It's not impossible, it's just very, very difficult, and along with talent, persistence, and luck, I agree that a positive attitude and willingness to be creative and take a few risks is needed. I'm flying this morning because I found out that Death Will Get You Sober is listed for preorder on Amazon, even though it won't be out till April. I just told several hundred MySpace friends about it--and they're not all writers who have dozens of friends' books on their shopping lists (pleeeeease buy mine--but I'll understand if you don't!), but also people I think might get a kick out of my irreverent but affectionate look at people in recovery. If I were still the computerphobe I started out as (only a decade ago) or shied away from the idea of making friends in cyberspace, I wouldn't be feeling good this morning about being a new mystery writer. BTW, about the notion that there's "nothing left" to distinguish one crime novel from another, that's like saying our faces are all alike because we all have two eyes, a nose, and a mouth. I posted a blog about the proverbial Seven Original Plots on Poe's Deadly Daughters this morning on this very topic. IMHO, originality is in characterization, voice, language--all that's unique to each writer. Liz Sandra... I bow to your exper…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-06:537324:Comment:697652007-09-06T10:19:02.811ZRoger Newburyhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/TrubbleBrewin
Sandra... I bow to your expertise! I hope I didn't come across as flippant with my reply to Jon Loomis's post, but then you do know me so well already!<br />
As you're aware, I have had some mixed responses to my stories, which I have submitted to agents/publishers in the past, although, when I say mixed responses, I mean either a total lack of a rejection letter at all, or a standard 'I'm afraid your work is not suitable for our list...' (unfortunately due to my current employment situation, my…
Sandra... I bow to your expertise! I hope I didn't come across as flippant with my reply to Jon Loomis's post, but then you do know me so well already!<br />
As you're aware, I have had some mixed responses to my stories, which I have submitted to agents/publishers in the past, although, when I say mixed responses, I mean either a total lack of a rejection letter at all, or a standard 'I'm afraid your work is not suitable for our list...' (unfortunately due to my current employment situation, my finances restrict me from sending off my material to any lit agent... but next year, I shall be 'pushing' my work, once I've been through it with an objective 'eye'!)<br />
Of all the publishers I sent my work to, it was only the two vanity publishers that were 'financially' hungrily eager to accept my stories; also I was unaware that they 'were' vanity publishers, until they responded with a letter, declaring their undying interest, followed with a request for 'X' amount of money from me for them to do the honours!<br />
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I should also clarify my statement, <i>'If I ever had a chance, I'd love to start up a combined literary agency/publishing company, solely for unpublished writers, no matter where they lived, and publish their work!'</i> I should have added, with regard to your thoughts about <i>'much of what gets picked up for a deal is not necessarily better than a lot of unpublished stuff - it's just considered more marketable at the time, and even then editors admit it's a gamble and a guess.'</i> while any work submitted has to go through the process of being properly read, and assessed for its marketability, this of course would be part and parcel of my own lit-agent/publishing company. However... it would be my intention to have some experienced people, willing to coax the writer into making their work 'more marketable' if it wasn't deemed ready. Even if this process took a little longer to produce a viable product.<br />
Of course, for me this is simply a pipe-dream... unless I win the UK Lottery! Then who knows!! Roger, the obvious question t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-05:537324:Comment:697002007-09-05T21:51:37.992ZSandra Ruttanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
Roger, the obvious question that comes to mind when I hear the 'write better stories' thing said to others is 'what makes something better'? In reality, much of what gets picked up for a deal is not necessarily better than a lot of unpublished stuff - it's just considered more marketable at the time, and even then editors admit it's a gamble and a guess.<br />
<br />
Now, I do think things have to be at a certain standard for publication. My philosophy is if you read a good book you want to read another…
Roger, the obvious question that comes to mind when I hear the 'write better stories' thing said to others is 'what makes something better'? In reality, much of what gets picked up for a deal is not necessarily better than a lot of unpublished stuff - it's just considered more marketable at the time, and even then editors admit it's a gamble and a guess.<br />
<br />
Now, I do think things have to be at a certain standard for publication. My philosophy is if you read a good book you want to read another good book, if you read a bad one you'll go watch TV. Seriously, since I buy most of my books, it's much like the theatre. If I shell out a lot of money and see crap on the big screen, it's sometimes a year or more before I go see another film. But if I see a good movie, I'm hoping there'll be another good one soon. So, that's my concern with publishing stuff that's blatantly bad. Which means there has to be some standard. Of course, there's stuff that is getting published that I consider crap, and that's down to taste.<br />
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Rejection is an important part of the learning process which I value as a writer, as long as it's sensible rejection. 'Write better stories' isn't helpful - better is subjective. "Your endings are weak." "Your characters are inconsistent." "I didn't find the subject interesting." That's helpful. It at least directs a person who's willing to learn.<br />
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And one opinion is just one opinion. One story I had rejected one place was automatically accepted next place I sent it to. It remains the short story I've had the most fan mail from. A lot of stuff gets rejected because it isn't good, but to say that's the only reason stuff gets rejected is simplistic.<br />
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For myself, every time I send out a rejection letter I feel it. I know what it is to receive them, and it doesn't make me happy to tell people their work didn't make it this time. But I also do it because I know how important it is in the whole process of growing as a writer.<br />
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(And I know many published authors who take a red pen to their book after it's printed. The ones I respect the most maintain they still have things to learn about their craft. That's why they go on to write better and better books. You've got to learn to be objective about your work to get to that point.) Hi Jon, the part in your disc…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-05:537324:Comment:696792007-09-05T19:50:24.945ZRoger Newburyhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/TrubbleBrewin
Hi Jon, the part in your discussion where you say the author told your friend to "write better stories..." made me smile, but not for the obvious reason. In my opinion, each one of us, who are as yet unpublished authors, will, and should, feel justifiably proud of the work we've produced; even if an already published writer cannot agree that it has or shows promise.<br />
No matter how much one may tweak, and do what they can to improve a 'finished' piece of work, or to come up with a 'better story',…
Hi Jon, the part in your discussion where you say the author told your friend to "write better stories..." made me smile, but not for the obvious reason. In my opinion, each one of us, who are as yet unpublished authors, will, and should, feel justifiably proud of the work we've produced; even if an already published writer cannot agree that it has or shows promise.<br />
No matter how much one may tweak, and do what they can to improve a 'finished' piece of work, or to come up with a 'better story', there are limits to the human imagination. Each one of us, is an original creator; different characters and the sojourn in which a storyline may take the reader, will have different results.<br />
Myself, as a prospective writer, I believe in all of the projects I write about, but I would like to think that soon, many unpublished writers will achieve success, without being demeaned about their 'prize' piece of work!<br />
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If I ever had a chance, I'd love to start up a combined literary agency/publishing company, solely for unpublished writers, no matter where they lived, and publish their work!