Not Shaken, Not Stirred, No Twist - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T16:05:22Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:70029?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A71826&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThat's true about vampires as…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:721482007-09-13T19:45:38.523ZSteve Mosbyhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/stevemosby
That's true about vampires as a way of "being an outsider" while still being part of ordinary life. I guess a lot of the more modern vampire novels have a lot in common with superhero narratives, but that's just a guess from the few I've read about. There's an anti-hero aspect to it. To an extent, you can see a bit of that, however bizarre it is as a concept, in serial killer novels too, starting with Lecter, and then more obviously in something like Dexter. In some horror franchises -…
That's true about vampires as a way of "being an outsider" while still being part of ordinary life. I guess a lot of the more modern vampire novels have a lot in common with superhero narratives, but that's just a guess from the few I've read about. There's an anti-hero aspect to it. To an extent, you can see a bit of that, however bizarre it is as a concept, in serial killer novels too, starting with Lecter, and then more obviously in something like Dexter. In some horror franchises - Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, and more modern stuff like Hostel and certainly Saw - the killers are anti-heros. But I was meaning more the older vampire or monster stories. I actually thought of Grendel, but the 'mommy problems' passed me by, damn it.<br />
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I wasn't meaning to imply you were saying anyone was misogynistic, by the way, but it's a common enough analysis I see being made. It just kind of annoys me whenever I see 'real-world' feminism being directly applied to the treatment of fictional characters, as it seems not too far away from, say, accusing certain scientific equations of being sexed or patriarchal. The analysis isn't necessarily built for the medium it's being applied to, and needs a bit of term-defining first. You can't make links like "lots of women are being killed in books, therefore society has problems with women", because fiction isn't necessarily being used for that function or on that level ... God, I'm boring even myself now. But I wasn't having a go at you, promise. :-) Because publishers publish th…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:721392007-09-13T18:54:51.626Zed goldberghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/edgbooks
Because publishers publish them and readers buy them. All series play to the same instinct in readers: the familiar. Thriller readers want that vicarious dip into fictional evil. Good writers manage to put more into the books than a paint-by-number rehash of Hannibal Lecter, but Lecter is what most readers are after. And Lecter-lite is what writers give them. Look at the cottage industry that grew up around "DaVinci Code." And the albino psycho was off-the-shelf in the first place.<br />
I say this…
Because publishers publish them and readers buy them. All series play to the same instinct in readers: the familiar. Thriller readers want that vicarious dip into fictional evil. Good writers manage to put more into the books than a paint-by-number rehash of Hannibal Lecter, but Lecter is what most readers are after. And Lecter-lite is what writers give them. Look at the cottage industry that grew up around "DaVinci Code." And the albino psycho was off-the-shelf in the first place.<br />
I say this being the creator of a hero who is a pale shadow of what Chandler created. What's new in the world of murder and mayhem? Not much. We do what we can.<br />
I won't do a serial killer because I think the thing is played out, and there is a nagging voice in my head that doesn't like women as victims, per se. The new thing is female serial killers, who have to do it backwards and in high heels.<br />
La plus ca change... Good one!
Your profile is hil…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:720292007-09-13T13:37:32.842ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
Good one!<br />
Your profile is hilarious. (I wondered what Linkedin was about - sharing business cards online? Now I know what it really is: ferns, no mojitos.)
Good one!<br />
Your profile is hilarious. (I wondered what Linkedin was about - sharing business cards online? Now I know what it really is: ferns, no mojitos.) I think you're right - it's a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:720272007-09-13T13:28:52.489ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
I think you're right - it's a fairytale that works for our time. (Hey, didn't even Grendel have mommy problems?) The profiler is a hero who can imagine his way into the nasty world in order to slay the demon - but meanwhile we get to visit the nasty world, which is a lot of fun. Vampires are an interesting parallel because they're also extremely popular, but I'm guessing (ignorantly enough - I'm not versed in that subgenre) that the parallel "they live among us; we can't tell who they are" is…
I think you're right - it's a fairytale that works for our time. (Hey, didn't even Grendel have mommy problems?) The profiler is a hero who can imagine his way into the nasty world in order to slay the demon - but meanwhile we get to visit the nasty world, which is a lot of fun. Vampires are an interesting parallel because they're also extremely popular, but I'm guessing (ignorantly enough - I'm not versed in that subgenre) that the parallel "they live among us; we can't tell who they are" is given a different perspective. I've often thought of it being a way to imagine being different, while covering for it. Like being closeted but seeing everything that happens in the everyday world with the perspective that there's a whole 'nother culture out there, and often a hero is part of it. Or maybe I'm thinking of Eric Garcia's dinosaurs.<br />
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Anyhoo.... I'm not actually saying people who read or write these fairytales are misogynistic, but I do think whatever our dominant fairytales are tell us something about how we funnel our anxieties into narratives that reassure us. After giving us a good, pleasant scare, of course. And I think it has a particular fascination in the US because we're frankly more than a bit odd about sex, and this is one narrative where you can both enjoy it and say "oh, that's SO disgusting. Did you see that? Shocking. I wonder what he'll get up to next." I think a number of people he…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:719832007-09-13T08:42:31.936ZSteve Mosbyhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/stevemosby
I think a number of people here have explained it well: the serial killer novel, with or without a profiler, is essentially an archetype-based 'beating the monster' fairytale. Of course, serial killers are less common in real life than in fiction, but so are vampires and werewolves. What's important in these tales isn't the reality of the monster but what it represents. Not a massively intelligent or original observation, I know, but serial killers in fiction are often the equivalent of…
I think a number of people here have explained it well: the serial killer novel, with or without a profiler, is essentially an archetype-based 'beating the monster' fairytale. Of course, serial killers are less common in real life than in fiction, but so are vampires and werewolves. What's important in these tales isn't the reality of the monster but what it represents. Not a massively intelligent or original observation, I know, but serial killers in fiction are often the equivalent of vampires - they come into your house at night; they invade your body; they're driven to do it by alien 'needs'; there's a sexual element. Maybe it's just that people can't take vampires seriously anymore but, because of media hype, can suspend disbelief enough to accept the serial killer.<br />
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The profiler's an interesting profession (or used to be), but I think that's a red herring; many SK books with a different main character buy into exactly the same narrative. The victims tend to be female because that's the nature of the tale: it plays on the fear of sexual violence, or violence against somebody vulnerable and 'valuable'. Maybe, like many vampires novels, it touches on male fears of failing to protect women, or sexual indiscretion, but that might be taking it too far. More importantly, there's just the demand of tension. The books require a climax, and pitting the SK against a big, burly bloke might undermine the suspense a little - in the big, final battle against the monster, the hero needs to fight to save someone/something a little more helpless than that. Personally, I wouldn't be scared to take on Anthony Hopkins. (Brian Cox is another matter).<br />
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Is that misogynistic? Yeah, in a way. It looks more insidious than it is, though, because of the proliferation of the books, and that's not due to readers demanding "kill more women! I love it!" so much as "give me the story I like! I want an easy read!". (Or maybe "Christ, I hope this one's a bit different"). In general, I think people concerned about violence against women - ie all sensible people, feminist or otherwise - are best to save their energies for women who actually exist. There may be a deeper meaning to the SK story, or dark truths about a few of the writers who produce it, but if your aim is to find misogyny then you can find it pretty much anywhere when you try hard enough. I've been directly accused of misogyny and having issues with women before. I really had no idea. Sorry to say, I don't find it…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:719422007-09-13T04:16:49.978ZKevin Allmanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/kevinallman
<i>Sorry to say, I don't find it any less annoying from a feminist perspective to have a woman inflict the torture. I saw an ad for that book in the Times. Naturally, the female Hannibal is stunningly beautiful.</i><br />
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Yeah. She's basically Anthony Hopkins in Sharon Stone's body.<br />
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<i>I recently read one from a Christian publisher, which struck me as strange, though I gather there is a strain of Christian fiction that revels in violence so long as the devil's behind it. It had plenty of sexual…</i>
<i>Sorry to say, I don't find it any less annoying from a feminist perspective to have a woman inflict the torture. I saw an ad for that book in the Times. Naturally, the female Hannibal is stunningly beautiful.</i><br />
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Yeah. She's basically Anthony Hopkins in Sharon Stone's body.<br />
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<i>I recently read one from a Christian publisher, which struck me as strange, though I gather there is a strain of Christian fiction that revels in violence so long as the devil's behind it. It had plenty of sexual sadism, but no swearing.</i><br />
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But enough about Mel Gibson...<br />
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<b>Ba-dum-BUMP!</b> I'll be here at the Chuckle Hut all week. Be sure to tip your waitress, drive safely, and for God's sake, hold your children a little tighter tonight. That's the trouble with combi…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-13:537324:Comment:718662007-09-13T00:02:48.988ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
That's the trouble with combining "predictable" with "twist." You get some strange contortions. Sorry to say, I don't find it any less annoying from a feminist perspective to have a woman inflict the torture. I saw an ad for that book in the Times. Naturally, the female Hannibal is stunningly beautiful. I'll bet she's not named Mabel or Joan, either.<br />
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I recently read one from a Christian publisher, which struck me as strange, though I gather there is a strain of Christian fiction that revels in…
That's the trouble with combining "predictable" with "twist." You get some strange contortions. Sorry to say, I don't find it any less annoying from a feminist perspective to have a woman inflict the torture. I saw an ad for that book in the Times. Naturally, the female Hannibal is stunningly beautiful. I'll bet she's not named Mabel or Joan, either.<br />
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I recently read one from a Christian publisher, which struck me as strange, though I gather there is a strain of Christian fiction that revels in violence so long as the devil's behind it. It had plenty of sexual sadism, but no swearing. Interesting - how often do yo…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-12:537324:Comment:718642007-09-12T23:54:27.172ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
Interesting - how often do you hear the phrase "enter the mind of a serial killer"? I see what you're saying. Who wants to enter the mind of some sad tosser who lost his temper and shot someone.<br />
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I liked the first Dexter book a lot - not because of the plot but because of the voice. I'll read anything if the writing captivates me enough.
Interesting - how often do you hear the phrase "enter the mind of a serial killer"? I see what you're saying. Who wants to enter the mind of some sad tosser who lost his temper and shot someone.<br />
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I liked the first Dexter book a lot - not because of the plot but because of the voice. I'll read anything if the writing captivates me enough. The good old days! chuckle.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-12:537324:Comment:718592007-09-12T23:50:20.633ZBarbara Fisterhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bfister
The good old days! chuckle.
The good old days! chuckle. Barbara, I don't know why thi…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-09-12:537324:Comment:718262007-09-12T21:00:23.586ZKevin Allmanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/kevinallman
Barbara, I don't know why this theme is so often repeated, but it is, and I'm tired of it too.<br />
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I just finished reading a fall novel (that got a huge advance), and the whole thing must've been sold from a deal memo: <i>"Silence of the Lambs. Gender switch."</i><br />
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Nearly ten years ago, my agent was telling me she'd gotten a sizable advance for a profiler/serial killer book where the twist was that they were actually the same person...a split personality or something. Kid you not.
Barbara, I don't know why this theme is so often repeated, but it is, and I'm tired of it too.<br />
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I just finished reading a fall novel (that got a huge advance), and the whole thing must've been sold from a deal memo: <i>"Silence of the Lambs. Gender switch."</i><br />
<br />
Nearly ten years ago, my agent was telling me she'd gotten a sizable advance for a profiler/serial killer book where the twist was that they were actually the same person...a split personality or something. Kid you not.