Kurt Vonnegut's Rules For Writing A Novel - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T12:40:16Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:93861?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A93942&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWho are we to add to a Vonneg…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-07:537324:Comment:1017522007-12-07T15:30:10.983ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
Who are we to add to a Vonnegut list or an Elmore Leonard list, or ... on and on.<br />
<br />
Steal some of these and write your own list.<br />
<br />
Jack
Who are we to add to a Vonnegut list or an Elmore Leonard list, or ... on and on.<br />
<br />
Steal some of these and write your own list.<br />
<br />
Jack John,
I agree with you about…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-04:537324:Comment:1005932007-12-04T16:45:02.983ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
John,<br />
<br />
I agree with you about reading along and living the characters, but I don't think Elmore Leonard gives "as much information as possible." He gives as much action and "living along" as possible. As to, "to heck with contrived suspense," I'd say "to heck with *obviously* contrived suspense. " In the best stories and novels, the suspense comes from the actions, reactions, anticipation, and fear of the characters. (Jude, take note.)<br />
<br />
I just discovered Cormac McCarthy, the best writer I've…
John,<br />
<br />
I agree with you about reading along and living the characters, but I don't think Elmore Leonard gives "as much information as possible." He gives as much action and "living along" as possible. As to, "to heck with contrived suspense," I'd say "to heck with *obviously* contrived suspense. " In the best stories and novels, the suspense comes from the actions, reactions, anticipation, and fear of the characters. (Jude, take note.)<br />
<br />
I just discovered Cormac McCarthy, the best writer I've found in about 30 years. He does this even better than Leonard.<br />
<br />
Jack It's one of my favorite thing…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-04:537324:Comment:1005892007-12-04T16:39:17.005ZJana Oliverhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JanaOliver
It's one of my favorite things to do. I'm a closet sadist, you see. Of course, it could be argued that I'm a masochist as well, since I am a writer.
It's one of my favorite things to do. I'm a closet sadist, you see. Of course, it could be argued that I'm a masochist as well, since I am a writer. I think that's it, John. To h…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-04:537324:Comment:1005802007-12-04T16:10:50.591ZJude Hardinhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
I think that's it, John. To heck with <i>contrived</i> suspense.
I think that's it, John. To heck with <i>contrived</i> suspense. Rule #8 may be why I like Elm…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-04:537324:Comment:1005742007-12-04T15:50:07.167ZJohn McFetridgehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
Rule #8 may be why I like Elmore Leonard so much. There's no great surprise at the end, the whole book hasn't been leading up to the moment when *something* is revealed. You get to read along as the characters live the story, knowing what they know - they don't know what's coming and niether do you. Is that, to heck with suspense? I don't know, but I wish more books were like that...
Rule #8 may be why I like Elmore Leonard so much. There's no great surprise at the end, the whole book hasn't been leading up to the moment when *something* is revealed. You get to read along as the characters live the story, knowing what they know - they don't know what's coming and niether do you. Is that, to heck with suspense? I don't know, but I wish more books were like that... Sound like good rules--except…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-04:537324:Comment:1004492007-12-04T05:23:45.241ZJackBludishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
Sound like good rules--except rule eight, but Papa Kurt wrote these rules years ago when people weren't so impatient to get on with the story, and editors and agents weren't looking for excuses to reject a manuscript.<br />
<br />
The rest are fine.<br />
<br />
Jack Bludis
Sound like good rules--except rule eight, but Papa Kurt wrote these rules years ago when people weren't so impatient to get on with the story, and editors and agents weren't looking for excuses to reject a manuscript.<br />
<br />
The rest are fine.<br />
<br />
Jack Bludis Thoughts, re: Rule # 8...
Yes…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-12-02:537324:Comment:998482007-12-02T20:07:55.917ZDonna Carrickhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DonnaCarrick
Thoughts, re: Rule # 8...<br />
Yes, I agree. Don't make your readers feel stupid by withholding important facts. That does not, however, negate the possibility of surprise. If the reader has all relevent facts, the writer can still use those facts in an unexpected manner without insulting the reader, as long as the 'twisted' ending is well within the realm of possibility, given the story up till that point. In fact, these are the most eloquently crafted stories, in my opinion.<br />
<br />
Mr. Vonnegut's own…
Thoughts, re: Rule # 8...<br />
Yes, I agree. Don't make your readers feel stupid by withholding important facts. That does not, however, negate the possibility of surprise. If the reader has all relevent facts, the writer can still use those facts in an unexpected manner without insulting the reader, as long as the 'twisted' ending is well within the realm of possibility, given the story up till that point. In fact, these are the most eloquently crafted stories, in my opinion.<br />
<br />
Mr. Vonnegut's own stories may not speak well to this rule, but I think it's still a good one. One must keep in mind, however, that all 'rules' pertaining to art are really mere 'guidelines'. We all break the rules regularly, or we would not be able to call ourselves artists.<br />
Donna Carrick<br />
<a href="http://www.donnacarrick.com">www.donnacarrick.com</a> Take two really cool characte…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-11-29:537324:Comment:985782007-11-29T02:07:04.596ZJude Hardinhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
<i>Take two really cool characters and torture the H*ll out of them for 300 pages</i>.<br />
<br />
Sounds like good advice to me, Jana.
<i>Take two really cool characters and torture the H*ll out of them for 300 pages</i>.<br />
<br />
Sounds like good advice to me, Jana. I'll take sales now over post…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-11-27:537324:Comment:978492007-11-27T20:46:33.624ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I'll take sales now over posthumous sales any time.
I'll take sales now over posthumous sales any time. #6 - My equivalent is "Take t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-11-27:537324:Comment:977062007-11-27T13:25:59.759ZJana Oliverhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JanaOliver
#6 - My equivalent is "Take two really cool characters and torture the H*ll out of them for 300 pages." It's worked well for me.<br />
<br />
As for #8, my editor has to remind me to put in a bit more info to satisfy the reader's "Why?" quotient. I'll spin out the mystery, but sometimes I'm a bit sparse as I feel too much detail slows the story. Fortunately my editor knows better. Of course, I might not have realized what that would have meant at the time.<br />
<br />
I went to high school with one of Vonnegut's…
#6 - My equivalent is "Take two really cool characters and torture the H*ll out of them for 300 pages." It's worked well for me.<br />
<br />
As for #8, my editor has to remind me to put in a bit more info to satisfy the reader's "Why?" quotient. I'll spin out the mystery, but sometimes I'm a bit sparse as I feel too much detail slows the story. Fortunately my editor knows better. Of course, I might not have realized what that would have meant at the time.<br />
<br />
I went to high school with one of Vonnegut's daughters. Never met the man. Wish now that our h.s. had invited him and some of the other luminaries from the Univ of Iowa Writer's Workshop over to talk to us. An opportunity missed.