Elmore Leonard and popular culture - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T13:24:01Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/elmore-leonard-and-popular-culture?xg_raw_resources=1&id=537324%3ATopic%3A383070&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree, Jack. And sometimes…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-14:537324:Comment:3838732013-12-14T01:49:35.759ZSusanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Susan
<p>I agree, Jack. And sometimes the best part is when he has the characters think one thing and say something completely different. Like the Indian in Killshot. My first EL book, and I recently re-read it. Still fresh, still hilarious and, well, even poignant sometimes.</p>
<p>I agree, Jack. And sometimes the best part is when he has the characters think one thing and say something completely different. Like the Indian in Killshot. My first EL book, and I recently re-read it. Still fresh, still hilarious and, well, even poignant sometimes.</p> You mean reality shows like "…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-13:537324:Comment:3837652013-12-13T12:30:48.603ZJack Getzehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JGetze
<p>You mean reality shows like "Survivor" are not high art? Seems to me those tall poles, the burning fires, all those dangerous locations are very symbolic of our times, the characters a perfect representation -- a mini panorama -- of our base, self-centered, acquisitive and thus doomed culture: High art, in other words, right up there with Cormac McCarthy. I'm joking, but isn't it possible some critic might say something similar two hundred years from now?</p>
<p>Breathtaking is a great…</p>
<p>You mean reality shows like "Survivor" are not high art? Seems to me those tall poles, the burning fires, all those dangerous locations are very symbolic of our times, the characters a perfect representation -- a mini panorama -- of our base, self-centered, acquisitive and thus doomed culture: High art, in other words, right up there with Cormac McCarthy. I'm joking, but isn't it possible some critic might say something similar two hundred years from now?</p>
<p>Breathtaking is a great adjective for Elmore's best stuff, Susan. His dialogue, the smart clever things people say, just blows me away sometimes.</p> Well, the title of the WSJ ar…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-13:537324:Comment:3835802013-12-13T00:51:51.698ZSusanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Susan
<p>Well, the title of the WSJ article is "Pop Culture's Limits." Seems to me Teachout (the author) is not so much slamming Elmore Leonard, or even Popular Culture, but rather the sad fact that only perhaps ten percent of the US population gives a damn about culture other than Pop Culture. The Pop Culture society does not go to art museums, classical music concerts, operas, ballet, etc, and consequently the media, as TT points out in the article, no longer cover these events.</p>
<p>And what…</p>
<p>Well, the title of the WSJ article is "Pop Culture's Limits." Seems to me Teachout (the author) is not so much slamming Elmore Leonard, or even Popular Culture, but rather the sad fact that only perhaps ten percent of the US population gives a damn about culture other than Pop Culture. The Pop Culture society does not go to art museums, classical music concerts, operas, ballet, etc, and consequently the media, as TT points out in the article, no longer cover these events.</p>
<p>And what about literature? Well, we all know that book reviews are a disappearing phenomenon. I was a bit disappointed though that TT did not mention a single living author. (correct me if I missed one). Flannery O'Connor. Tennessee Williams. Alas, even Aaron Copland is dead. Maybe TT only likes "dead people."</p>
<p>I admit to agreeing that American society as a whole has been so completely "dumbed down" by television that "high brow" culture is now restricted to the elite whose parents have money to send them to private school to learn about art and music and literature. The public schools no longer teach these subjects, trust me.</p>
<p>But geez, we can't blame Elmore for that! I just finished reading Riding the Rap for the third time and it is still breathtaking!</p> Bobby Hackett played cornet i…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-13:537324:Comment:3836772013-12-13T00:34:32.066ZSusanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Susan
<p>Bobby Hackett played cornet in his earlier years but he played trumpet exclusively later in life. [I met him once in Boston] Truth be told, I made my living playing and teaching trumpet for several decades in and around Boston. Few people can identify the difference between the cornet vs trumpet sound, and even fewer know what the actual differences between the two instruments are. Louis Armstrong started playing cornet because it was the only instrument available to him in the Little…</p>
<p>Bobby Hackett played cornet in his earlier years but he played trumpet exclusively later in life. [I met him once in Boston] Truth be told, I made my living playing and teaching trumpet for several decades in and around Boston. Few people can identify the difference between the cornet vs trumpet sound, and even fewer know what the actual differences between the two instruments are. Louis Armstrong started playing cornet because it was the only instrument available to him in the Little Wanderers Home. He switched to trumpet after he played with Fletcher Henderson's band in NYC, because the others in the FH band played trumpet and he liked the brighter trumpet sound. Not sure about Bix, whether he ever switched to tpt or not. He didn't live very long, died when he was thirty or so. Great musician, tho.</p>
<p>Sorry for the diversion into the brass world. </p> Spot on, Andrew.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-11:537324:Comment:3836452013-12-11T20:46:06.128ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
<p>Spot on, Andrew.</p>
<p>Spot on, Andrew.</p> The great Bix Beiderbecke is…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-11:537324:Comment:3834642013-12-11T19:06:38.928ZAndrew Drummondhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/AndrewDrummond
<p>The great Bix Beiderbecke is also often wrongly described as a "trumpet" player.</p>
<p>The great Bix Beiderbecke is also often wrongly described as a "trumpet" player.</p> Heck, if you know what didn't…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-10:537324:Comment:3834002013-12-10T21:59:30.715ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>Heck, if you know what didn't work, you can do it better next time. Of course, we can improve. I grant you that we let books go when they are passable, but we also hope that the next story will give us a chance to do better things with it. I'm totally aware of which books are my best. Alas, readers don't always agree.</p>
<p>Heck, if you know what didn't work, you can do it better next time. Of course, we can improve. I grant you that we let books go when they are passable, but we also hope that the next story will give us a chance to do better things with it. I'm totally aware of which books are my best. Alas, readers don't always agree.</p> No, but we also can't become…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-10:537324:Comment:3833982013-12-10T21:34:27.049ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
<p>No, but we also can't become better writers than we are just because we want to be. Everyone settles; there's no way around it except to fail better next time.</p>
<p>No, but we also can't become better writers than we are just because we want to be. Everyone settles; there's no way around it except to fail better next time.</p> I'm not following this about…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-10:537324:Comment:3834472013-12-10T17:57:58.652ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>I'm not following this about characters too well. Let's face it, certain genre novels specialize in type-cast characters. That would include the early versions of the down-and-out P.I. and the sultry blondes that cross his threshold. My feeling is that those who have been most down-trodden by society are often the very people celebrated by 20th century literary novelists. Social agendas were near and dear to Dreiser, Steinbeck, Faulkner and others. Meanwhile, romance novels (surely not high…</p>
<p>I'm not following this about characters too well. Let's face it, certain genre novels specialize in type-cast characters. That would include the early versions of the down-and-out P.I. and the sultry blondes that cross his threshold. My feeling is that those who have been most down-trodden by society are often the very people celebrated by 20th century literary novelists. Social agendas were near and dear to Dreiser, Steinbeck, Faulkner and others. Meanwhile, romance novels (surely not high art) preferred lords and ladies in their cast. </p> Yes, I agree it's changed sin…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2013-12-10:537324:Comment:3834452013-12-10T16:51:32.310ZJohn McFetridgehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
<p>Yes, I agree it's changed since Steinbeck.</p>
<p>As for the author making us care, I was talking about the critical reception. I think in the case of Alice Munro and Elmore Leonard there's no doubt the readers of their books care about the characters. This doesn't come up directly in the criticisms but the article that started this thread thinks there's a difference between 'high art' and 'pop culture' but, of course, makes no effort to define either one.</p>
<p>And what I've started to…</p>
<p>Yes, I agree it's changed since Steinbeck.</p>
<p>As for the author making us care, I was talking about the critical reception. I think in the case of Alice Munro and Elmore Leonard there's no doubt the readers of their books care about the characters. This doesn't come up directly in the criticisms but the article that started this thread thinks there's a difference between 'high art' and 'pop culture' but, of course, makes no effort to define either one.</p>
<p>And what I've started to notice is that quite often when something is dismissed as not 'high art' or not 'literature' the characters usually have some things in common...</p>