If you had the choice, which one would you read? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T13:32:40Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/if-you-had-the-choice-which-one-would-you-read?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A361606&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYes, iabanon. Nicely phrased…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-07:537324:Comment:3620612012-12-07T15:05:09.052ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>Yes, iabanon. Nicely phrased and vivid. But it doesn't save the example as a beginning of a crime novel. It needs something else.</p>
<p>Yes, iabanon. Nicely phrased and vivid. But it doesn't save the example as a beginning of a crime novel. It needs something else.</p> iabanon,
That's good.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-07:537324:Comment:3620582012-12-07T13:44:37.089ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
<p>iabanon,</p>
<p>That's good.</p>
<p>iabanon,</p>
<p>That's good.</p> There is none of the samples…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-07:537324:Comment:3619912012-12-07T11:16:37.436Ziabanonhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/iabanon
<p>There is none of the samples shown that i would choose over the other, but if mixed up right for there is something in there. I like how descriptive you are, but some of the language is a bit weak and passive. </p>
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<p>"His soaked seat reminds him of one of those big, disgusting sponges you find in kitchens."</p>
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<p>The sweat soaked seat reminded him of the rancid sponge in his kitchen sink. He shifted uncomfortably at the thought. </p>
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<p>I'm not a published…</p>
<p>There is none of the samples shown that i would choose over the other, but if mixed up right for there is something in there. I like how descriptive you are, but some of the language is a bit weak and passive. </p>
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<p>"His soaked seat reminds him of one of those big, disgusting sponges you find in kitchens."</p>
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<p>The sweat soaked seat reminded him of the rancid sponge in his kitchen sink. He shifted uncomfortably at the thought. </p>
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<p>I'm not a published writer so I'm sure others could offer better examples, but I hope you see what I mean. </p>
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<p></p> Fair enough. I agree with you…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-03:537324:Comment:3618712012-12-03T12:57:49.254ZBenjamin Sobieckhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BenjaminSobieck
<p>Fair enough. I agree with your last point, though.</p>
<p>Fair enough. I agree with your last point, though.</p> Bah humbug. Objectivity towar…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-03:537324:Comment:3617862012-12-03T03:33:20.710ZEric Christophersonhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>Bah humbug. Objectivity towards the prose is easier when you don't know a thing about the author. I've been in my share of crit groups, both online and in meat space, and familiarity can become a problem.</p>
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<p>I'm not saying this is the best site for feedback because it's not set up for that structurally as an online site for critting would be.</p>
<p>Bah humbug. Objectivity towards the prose is easier when you don't know a thing about the author. I've been in my share of crit groups, both online and in meat space, and familiarity can become a problem.</p>
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<p>I'm not saying this is the best site for feedback because it's not set up for that structurally as an online site for critting would be.</p> I think what this thread unde…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-02:537324:Comment:3617782012-12-02T21:13:48.164ZBenjamin Sobieckhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BenjaminSobieck
<p>I think what this thread underscores is why it isn't a good idea to post excerpts and ask for feedback. That's best reserved for a dedicated writing group familiar with members' styles. There's also a more bird's eye view of the writer instead of quick one-off impressions.</p>
<p>I think what this thread underscores is why it isn't a good idea to post excerpts and ask for feedback. That's best reserved for a dedicated writing group familiar with members' styles. There's also a more bird's eye view of the writer instead of quick one-off impressions.</p> This isn't a matter of a hook…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-02:537324:Comment:3616322012-12-02T06:25:58.030ZBrian Hoffmanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BrianHoffman
<p>This isn't a matter of a hook or not. It is a matter of sophisticated reader who does't want to read something that doesn't interest them.</p>
<p>This isn't a matter of rules. It is a matter of people who work all day and want to be swept away to a different world. Some pick TV and others (bless their souls) pick up our books and read. We owe them the best book we can write, not some esoteric BS about the style of relatively obscure writers. </p>
<p>You are doing what many rookie…</p>
<p>This isn't a matter of a hook or not. It is a matter of sophisticated reader who does't want to read something that doesn't interest them.</p>
<p>This isn't a matter of rules. It is a matter of people who work all day and want to be swept away to a different world. Some pick TV and others (bless their souls) pick up our books and read. We owe them the best book we can write, not some esoteric BS about the style of relatively obscure writers. </p>
<p>You are doing what many rookie writers have done before you. You are fighting the truth because you believe in your work. That's good, but what you have simply isn't interesting. Relax, listen to the advice. Hooks are there to give the reader a reason to keep reading.</p>
<p>believe us. The reader of most fiction knows what they want to read. You said you were trying to write a hard-boiled, noir short story. These genres have elements that are expected by the reader. The joy of writing these stories is pleasing the reader. And they reward you by buying your next work. </p>
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<p>One more example of a great noir opening. This is from Walter Mosely's, great noir novel Devil in a Blue Dress.</p>
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<p>I was surprised to see a white man walk into Jappy's bar. Mosely goes on the describe the white man. This isn't a hook, its a reason to read on and find out about the narrator, Jappy, the white man, and why it's unusual to see a white man.</p>
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<p>You can fight the truth or not. Write what you want. Please yourself or the reader, your choice.</p> There are publishers and ther…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-02:537324:Comment:3616642012-12-02T00:46:56.965ZEric Christophersonhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>There are publishers and there are publishers. It's hard for me to believe that even a legitimate small press would consent to publish a short story that opens in any of the three styles offered. They're all over-written, despite the dullness of the scene described. (Or perhaps what we've been offered are translations from another language and something has been lost in translation?) Just my opinion, of course.</p>
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<p>I don't know of a single crime fiction how-to book that's any…</p>
<p>There are publishers and there are publishers. It's hard for me to believe that even a legitimate small press would consent to publish a short story that opens in any of the three styles offered. They're all over-written, despite the dullness of the scene described. (Or perhaps what we've been offered are translations from another language and something has been lost in translation?) Just my opinion, of course.</p>
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<p>I don't know of a single crime fiction how-to book that's any good. I know of several how-to books on how to write literary fiction that are very good and with advice that by and large applies to crime fiction authors too. My personal favorites: (1) The Art of Fiction by John Gardner; and (2) The Art & Craft of Novel Writing by Oakley Hall. Both authors of these how-to books were very good novelists themselves.</p> I know that 5 or 6 people in…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-01:537324:Comment:3615382012-12-01T22:54:56.980ZBodypractorhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Bodypractor
<p>I know that 5 or 6 people in a forum do not represent the voice of ALL. I'm writing a bit myself and I would tend to be really influenced by your advice on putting a hook within the first sentences or so. By the way, thank you all for trying to help me and making this community alive.</p>
<p>Still I'm a bit lost. Why? Simply because I know for sure that "the text where you see no hook" has been accepted for publication by TWO publishers. I mean real publishers. But the author has a…</p>
<p>I know that 5 or 6 people in a forum do not represent the voice of ALL. I'm writing a bit myself and I would tend to be really influenced by your advice on putting a hook within the first sentences or so. By the way, thank you all for trying to help me and making this community alive.</p>
<p>Still I'm a bit lost. Why? Simply because I know for sure that "the text where you see no hook" has been accepted for publication by TWO publishers. I mean real publishers. But the author has a preference to go the indie way...Do you think this is a 'genre thing' or 'reading and writing crime novels' has turned you into readers filtering a book by the speed at whih it reveals its first hook? ;-)</p>
<p>As such, I don't know if the "put a hook in your first sentence" must be considered as an absolute truth or not. It is true that I'm quite influenced by Japanese and French literatures. The hook-rule seems not to be obeyed by most of their writers. Murakami (he is a MAN by the way) himself does not seem to use it extensively. Edogawa also. By the way I.J. Parker, what do you exactly mean by "derivative"? Is it to be understood as pejorative? Or can it be considered as a compliment to the author? Would you know of similar derivative authors in American literature? I'd be REALLY interested in getting some names, if the do exist, which I'm sure they do.</p>
<p>Have all of you learned the ropes of 'Crime writing' in 'How to write' books? How-to books really are an American cultural trademark. I think it has more goods than bads. As such, what would be the 5 or 10 books you would recommend me reading to improve my writing and hook-management? ;-)) I mean How-to just as literary works?</p> Bodypractor,
On any forum, y…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-01:537324:Comment:3616222012-12-01T19:42:12.318ZBrian Hoffmanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BrianHoffman
<p>Bodypractor,</p>
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<p>On any forum, you get to ask the questions. You don't get to dictate the answers. What we are all trying to tell you is that picking a style is unimportant. Telling an interesting story is. Forget style, that is just polish on the end product. Write from the heart, not another writer's work. I don't want to see a Picasso painted by Joe Smoo. I want to see your painting. Yes study others, don't write like them.</p>
<p>I will give you an answer to your…</p>
<p>Bodypractor,</p>
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<p>On any forum, you get to ask the questions. You don't get to dictate the answers. What we are all trying to tell you is that picking a style is unimportant. Telling an interesting story is. Forget style, that is just polish on the end product. Write from the heart, not another writer's work. I don't want to see a Picasso painted by Joe Smoo. I want to see your painting. Yes study others, don't write like them.</p>
<p>I will give you an answer to your question. I don't like any of the three because you haven't given me a reason to like one of them. Unless you are going to sit on every bookshelf and explain your story to reader, you have to do it in the story itself. These long winded bloviations explaining what you want means you aren't listening to good advice.</p>
<p>You say this is a short story. All the more reason to write tight and not waste a word. Plunge me directly into the story. If a short story was a candy bar, give me the candy, not the wrapper.</p>
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<p>Let me give you an example of what I mean. George V. Higgins book The Friends of Eddie Coyle starts with this sentence:</p>
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<p>Jackie Brown at twenty-six, with no expression on his face, said that he could get some guns.</p>
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<p>That is a great stuff. I want to know why, what guns, who the hell is Jackie Brown. If you haven't read Higgins, you should. The Friends of Eddie Coyle is considered one of the top ten of all time. I picked this book, because the style takes time to understand (it is written in at least 90% dialogue). But that was a choice Higgins made. Did he influence me, yes, do I write like him, no, </p>
<p>Relax, know that all of us are trying to help you.</p>
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