My 'suggestions' on how to write good hardboiled/noir. - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T16:19:12Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/my-suggestions-on-how-to-write?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree with your comment re…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-05-03:537324:Comment:2872262011-05-03T00:38:14.313ZSusanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Susan
<p>I agree with your comment re Higgins' later novels ... none captured the magic of "Friends." Also agree that most novelists couldn't get away with that much dialogue. Elmore Leonard does pretty well though. On another topic, related to hardboiled, if you're a fan of Hammett and Chandler, check out Shortcut Man by p.g. sturges. He's the son of Hollywood director of same name. I'm halfway through it ... parts are hilarious, but this is definitely a gritty book ... not for the squeamish or…</p>
<p>I agree with your comment re Higgins' later novels ... none captured the magic of "Friends." Also agree that most novelists couldn't get away with that much dialogue. Elmore Leonard does pretty well though. On another topic, related to hardboiled, if you're a fan of Hammett and Chandler, check out Shortcut Man by p.g. sturges. He's the son of Hollywood director of same name. I'm halfway through it ... parts are hilarious, but this is definitely a gritty book ... not for the squeamish or priggish. link below is to amazon page</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Shortcut-Man-Novel-p-g-sturges/dp/1439194173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304382800&sr=1-1" target="_blank">Shortcut Man</a></p> Susan--I agree 100% with what…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-05-02:537324:Comment:2871912011-05-02T19:09:12.057ZMike Dennishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/MikeDennis
<p>Susan--I agree 100% with what you said about <em>The Friends Of Eddie Coyle</em>. It's a true classic, and one of my top 5 favorite noir novels of all time. The dialogue took up maybe 80% of the entire novel and propelled the story all by itself.</p>
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<p>However, George V Higgins tried (way too hard, some say) to recapture that magic in subsequent novels by using the same all-dialogue-all-the-time technique, and failed miserably. I'd have to agree with BR on this one, that dialogue…</p>
<p>Susan--I agree 100% with what you said about <em>The Friends Of Eddie Coyle</em>. It's a true classic, and one of my top 5 favorite noir novels of all time. The dialogue took up maybe 80% of the entire novel and propelled the story all by itself.</p>
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<p>However, George V Higgins tried (way too hard, some say) to recapture that magic in subsequent novels by using the same all-dialogue-all-the-time technique, and failed miserably. I'd have to agree with BR on this one, that dialogue should only be part of the mix, with narrative and description playing key roles.</p> Great post, BR. I wouldn't ca…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-05-02:537324:Comment:2871572011-05-02T19:05:32.277ZMike Dennishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/MikeDennis
<p>Great post, BR. I wouldn't call them rules, either. But they are great ideas, especially numbers 1-3, and should be considered by everyone writing in the hardboiled/noir subgenres.</p>
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<p>My favorite quote is from W Somerset Maugham, who said, "<em>There are only three rules for writing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.</em>"</p>
<p>Great post, BR. I wouldn't call them rules, either. But they are great ideas, especially numbers 1-3, and should be considered by everyone writing in the hardboiled/noir subgenres.</p>
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<p>My favorite quote is from W Somerset Maugham, who said, "<em>There are only three rules for writing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.</em>"</p> Susan---interesting. I can s…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-04-30:537324:Comment:2867412011-04-30T00:21:15.628ZB.R.Statehamhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BRStateham
<p>Susan---interesting. I can see a difference in POV between writers on that point.</p>
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<p>Minerva--liked 9 and 10 in your list of rules.</p>
<p>Susan---interesting. I can see a difference in POV between writers on that point.</p>
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<p>Minerva--liked 9 and 10 in your list of rules.</p> Here'er mine:
http://www.mi…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-04-29:537324:Comment:2867322011-04-29T18:27:22.297ZminervaKhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/minervakoenig
<p>Here'er mine:</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.minervakoenig.com/2010/02/10-aspirations.html" target="_blank">http://www.minervakoenig.com/2010/02/10-aspirations.html</a></p>
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<p>Here'er mine:</p>
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<p><a href="http://www.minervakoenig.com/2010/02/10-aspirations.html" target="_blank">http://www.minervakoenig.com/2010/02/10-aspirations.html</a></p>
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<p> </p> Okay, #s 1 and 2 apply to all…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2011-04-28:537324:Comment:2865962011-04-28T23:43:47.223ZSusanhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Susan
Okay, #s 1 and 2 apply to all writing. As for writing hardboiled/noir, I agree with #3: the opening better be a grabber. Partly agree w/#4. Introduce the killer early, but if you write thrillers, as I do, no need to hide or disguise him/her. My latest (pub date June 2011) begins in the killer POV. #5 subplots are okay, but I think it's best if they relate in some way to the main plot. #6: dialogue is very important and it better sound good to your inner ear and feel authentic to the reader…
Okay, #s 1 and 2 apply to all writing. As for writing hardboiled/noir, I agree with #3: the opening better be a grabber. Partly agree w/#4. Introduce the killer early, but if you write thrillers, as I do, no need to hide or disguise him/her. My latest (pub date June 2011) begins in the killer POV. #5 subplots are okay, but I think it's best if they relate in some way to the main plot. #6: dialogue is very important and it better sound good to your inner ear and feel authentic to the reader (relative the person speaking). As for a novel with only dialogue? Have you read The Friends of Eddy Coyle, by that absolute master of dialogue George V. Higgins? if not, BUY IT NOW! It's a fabulous lesson in how to craft a novel with great characters in an economical way. #7: if you're thinking about a series, you'd better pay a lot of attention to your protagonist/series character and make him/her an utterly fascinating person. And #8, in the words of my series protagonist New Orleans Homicide Detective Frank Renzi ... FTR F*** the rules.