People, Places, and Products - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T08:51:42Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/people-places-and-products?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A209270&xg_raw_resources=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis publisher sounds unusual…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-08-04:537324:Comment:2092702009-08-04T21:03:04.905ZJulie Lomoehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/julielomoe
This publisher sounds unusually paranoid - my gut instinct would tell me to avoid them. I don't know who they are, but are they really worth the hassle? I'm glad to see others' comments to the effect that you shouldn't have to worry so much.<br />
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I use lots of real names, brands and places in my books - especially music the characters are listening to. But some usages give me pause - for example, the heroine in <i>Mood Swing: The Bipolar Murders</i> went to grad school at New York University, as…
This publisher sounds unusually paranoid - my gut instinct would tell me to avoid them. I don't know who they are, but are they really worth the hassle? I'm glad to see others' comments to the effect that you shouldn't have to worry so much.<br />
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I use lots of real names, brands and places in my books - especially music the characters are listening to. But some usages give me pause - for example, the heroine in <i>Mood Swing: The Bipolar Murders</i> went to grad school at New York University, as did I, and I talked about how much she hated it, how the library tempted students to commit suicide (true) and how the school was "metastasizing all over Greenwich Village." I debated long and hard about whether to call it "the university" or "NYU" and finally went with the latter. What the heck!<br />
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For <i>Eldercide</i>, I created a fictional town in Rensselaer County named "Kooperskill," because it's based closely on where I live, and I didn't want to identify the town and upset my neighbors. But that's a lot different than writing about New York City.<br />
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<a href="http://julielomoe.wordpress.com" target="_blank">Julie Lomoe's Musings Mysterioso</a> Dana -- I don't know who this…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-08-01:537324:Comment:2090062009-08-01T20:24:57.749ZNeil Nyrenhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/NeilNyren
Dana -- I don't know who this small publisher is, but no publisher I've ever known would have any problem with numbers 1 through 3 above (as long as you didn't claim any of those real restaurants to be ptomaine palaces or otherwise involved in nasty business).<br />
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Just think back to the books you've read. How many of them had real cities, real streets, real places in them? I'd bet most or all of them, right? So, clearly, "publishers" are not asking for stuff like this. As for people, just use…
Dana -- I don't know who this small publisher is, but no publisher I've ever known would have any problem with numbers 1 through 3 above (as long as you didn't claim any of those real restaurants to be ptomaine palaces or otherwise involved in nasty business).<br />
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Just think back to the books you've read. How many of them had real cities, real streets, real places in them? I'd bet most or all of them, right? So, clearly, "publishers" are not asking for stuff like this. As for people, just use common sense. Public figures can often be referred to by name because they're public (just don't accuse them of murdering their parents -- unless they did, of course). Private citizens are different because they have an inherent right to privacy. And Jon is right, the dead are the dead, they can't sue you. This seems awfully restrictiv…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-30:537324:Comment:2087992009-07-30T18:16:21.993ZKris Nerihttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/KrisNeri
This seems awfully restrictive to me. Brand names are often used in fiction, and as long as they're written correctly (Kleenix with a capital K), there isn't usually a problem. There's a reason why their association occasionally takes out ads in writing magazines asking writers to cite real products correctly. Ditto for real streets, which provide local color. I've used real locales in all my books and I've never had a publisher object. But it is common to need a release if you use a real…
This seems awfully restrictive to me. Brand names are often used in fiction, and as long as they're written correctly (Kleenix with a capital K), there isn't usually a problem. There's a reason why their association occasionally takes out ads in writing magazines asking writers to cite real products correctly. Ditto for real streets, which provide local color. I've used real locales in all my books and I've never had a publisher object. But it is common to need a release if you use a real person's name, even if that person begged to be included, or paid for it in a charity auction. I have a real person who helped me to proof the book who'll be appearing in my forthcoming REVENGE FOR OLD TIMES' SAKE as a character and she had to sign a release for my publisher. I don't know how it works with dead people - I'd assume you can use their names without permission. They clearly can't give you written permission. Tracking down heirs seems excessive to me.<br />
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I do have a friend, though, who planned to kill her victim with a machine she saw at a tea plantation. The book was well underway when she wrote to the company and asked permission to describe this machine in her book. They said they'd sue her if she referenced it, so she had to dramatically rework the book and make the murder entirely different. I guess in some instances you do have to be careful. I see I was coming in late on…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2087002009-07-29T17:23:42.502ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I see I was coming in late on this when everybody had already spoken. Why not use common sense (keeping in mind the really tough music industry) and proceed the way you want. A disclaimer as Dan suggests should cover you.
I see I was coming in late on this when everybody had already spoken. Why not use common sense (keeping in mind the really tough music industry) and proceed the way you want. A disclaimer as Dan suggests should cover you. I think all of that protects…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086982009-07-29T17:16:10.412ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I think all of that protects them (and you) from being sued if you say something nasty about it. The use of current music requires permission from the band in each case. This can be costly. I would change business names, but not street names. I would get permission (or quote only what is permissible without). I would use alternates for brandnames. As for getting permission for using city names or real places in a city: who do you get this from? I think that's unreasonable. Your editor should…
I think all of that protects them (and you) from being sued if you say something nasty about it. The use of current music requires permission from the band in each case. This can be costly. I would change business names, but not street names. I would get permission (or quote only what is permissible without). I would use alternates for brandnames. As for getting permission for using city names or real places in a city: who do you get this from? I think that's unreasonable. Your editor should alert you to possible problems. It's not a good idea ever to write negatively about real people, places, brands, etc. I'm with you on fairness. The…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086962009-07-29T16:28:27.595ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
I'm with you on fairness. There are a couple of scenes that take place in mob-owned businesses, and one shooting in a restaurant. They are always fictional, and located either where there is no similar business, or where the location is somewhat ambiguous.
I'm with you on fairness. There are a couple of scenes that take place in mob-owned businesses, and one shooting in a restaurant. They are always fictional, and located either where there is no similar business, or where the location is somewhat ambiguous. They're afraid of getting sue…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086862009-07-29T15:48:28.675ZJon Loomishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
They're afraid of getting sued--they probably use this blanket approach because they couldn't afford to defend themselves in a defamation suit. That said, going to this length is totally ridiculous--you have to get permission to use street names? From who, the freaking mayor of Chicago? I make fun of products in my books--cars, mostly--and my publisher doesn't bat an eye because it's clearly satire. I also make fun of political figures by name, which is obviously protected speech (although not…
They're afraid of getting sued--they probably use this blanket approach because they couldn't afford to defend themselves in a defamation suit. That said, going to this length is totally ridiculous--you have to get permission to use street names? From who, the freaking mayor of Chicago? I make fun of products in my books--cars, mostly--and my publisher doesn't bat an eye because it's clearly satire. I also make fun of political figures by name, which is obviously protected speech (although not to everyone's liking, but whatever). As for Accardo, unless they've changed the law, you can't libel the dead. If it was me, I'd shy away from a publisher that was this timid. There are some common-sense restrictions you might place on yourself, though--I set a lot of scenes in bars and restaurants, and I try not to use real names of businesses if I'm going to say snarky things about the food, the prices or the atmosphere, just out of a sense of fairness I think they do that partly t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086842009-07-29T15:41:27.328ZJon Loomishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
I think they do that partly to "protect" potential sponsors who might be paying for product placements, right? If you're paying to have the hero drink a Pepsi on-screen, you don't want him standing in front of a Coke machine while he's doing it. Ditto cars, chips, gum, cell-phones, etc. No free plugs for anybody.
I think they do that partly to "protect" potential sponsors who might be paying for product placements, right? If you're paying to have the hero drink a Pepsi on-screen, you don't want him standing in front of a Coke machine while he's doing it. Ditto cars, chips, gum, cell-phones, etc. No free plugs for anybody. You're right about photocopie…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086742009-07-29T14:22:30.352ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
You're right about photocopies. To be honest, I don't know if I even use that example in the book; I took it from their list. (One of the things I'm balking about is creating the comprehensive list of all such occurrences they're requesting as part of the submission. That will take me a week right there, and it may only provide ground for a rejection without reading.)<br />
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Three types of instances came to mind immediately when I read their list:<br />
1. I called the Chicago police to see what kind of…
You're right about photocopies. To be honest, I don't know if I even use that example in the book; I took it from their list. (One of the things I'm balking about is creating the comprehensive list of all such occurrences they're requesting as part of the submission. That will take me a week right there, and it may only provide ground for a rejection without reading.)<br />
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Three types of instances came to mind immediately when I read their list:<br />
1. I called the Chicago police to see what kind of cars a plainclothes cop would drive. I hate reading, "he saw a late model sedan that could be a cop," when I could just refer to the Chevy Lumina he keeps seeing in his mirrors.<br />
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2. Several scenes take place in real restaurants, off the regular tourist track, that would be known primarily to locals. I'm complimentary about the places, and I think they add the local flavor the story has received several compliments about.<br />
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3. The head bad guy relates an anecdote about his first encounter with Tony Accardo, when the current hood was a young man. I could change the name, but, again, I think something of the Chicago-ness would be lost. BTW, Accardo commits no criminal acts in the story. He bails the kid out of jail and tells him what he's done is no way to make a living. When the kid makes it clear he's made up his mind, Accardo finds him a job working for one of his men. On the other hand, when the kid's father gets killed, it's pretty clear Accardo ordered the hit. On the other other hand, Tony Accardo is well documented as having ordered a lot of guys to be put in holes.<br />
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I'm not against making all such changes. I am a little concerned they seem to be basing acceptance of the book on so many of these things, and that much of what I think makes it a good book may be lost. As I type this, I think I'm going to lay it out for them much as I have here, to see if they're negotiable. If so, I am too. If not, then I'll move on.<br />
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Thanks to all for your comments. If anyone else has anything to add, I'll be happy to hear it. They are fussier, for sure. B…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-29:537324:Comment:2086632009-07-29T12:27:29.766ZJack Getzehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JGetze
They are fussier, for sure. But I don't see how changing Xerox to photocopy will hurt your story. I like to use a few brand names, many authors do, but to me it's a minor thing vs. the reward of possible publication by a legitimate press. Do it their way. You can always change the stuff back if they don't accept.
They are fussier, for sure. But I don't see how changing Xerox to photocopy will hurt your story. I like to use a few brand names, many authors do, but to me it's a minor thing vs. the reward of possible publication by a legitimate press. Do it their way. You can always change the stuff back if they don't accept.