Screen writers and their "creative license" - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T18:20:48Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/screen-writers-and-their?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A182729&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi, Jon,
My initial comments…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-24:537324:Comment:1845022009-02-24T11:04:07.551ZPate Grantwellhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PateGrantwell
Hi, Jon,<br />
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My initial comments about profanity were made about writing in general, not your work specifically. If you like to employ profanity, that is obviously your prerogative. I made an allusion to thirteen-year-olds (and I meant both boys and girls, not just boys as you state in your reply) because your comments imply that language should reflect real life. To quote you, "language is language."<br />
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If you won't write about thirteen-year-old boys because you don't know any, that's your…
Hi, Jon,<br />
<br />
My initial comments about profanity were made about writing in general, not your work specifically. If you like to employ profanity, that is obviously your prerogative. I made an allusion to thirteen-year-olds (and I meant both boys and girls, not just boys as you state in your reply) because your comments imply that language should reflect real life. To quote you, "language is language."<br />
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If you won't write about thirteen-year-old boys because you don't know any, that's your discretion. Again, I was addressing the question of profanity in general, not as it relates to your work specifically. You are entirely at liberty to write as you desire. However I can think of many reasons why someone would write about child molestation - for the same reasons they'd write about murder, robbery, rape, kidnapping, blackmail e.t.c. Child molestation is just as viable a subject for creative exploration as any other. Countless books have been written about the subject, and a movie, "Mystic River," in which child molestation played a strong role, won oscars for best actor and supporting actor a few years back.<br />
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Your first reference to "cozies" concerned books, now you've switched to movies, but I'll play along. Strictly speaking, all mainstream movies are "cozies." The ones that purport to frankly depict sex and violence, teem with unabashed censorhip - no graphic genital sex, no graphic oral sex, no graphic child murders, and so on. The stuff that people refer to as frank, usually exclude actions and statements that offend our sensibilities. So whether we are conscious of it or not, we are constantly stalked by the specter of censorhip.<br />
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My writing style is meant strictly for me. I do not try to impose it on anyone. Nor do I make any exclusions about what I read based on style or content. I don't care if every other word in a book is "fuck," if it is creatively written, I will read it. If it contains no profanity, and it's creatively written, I will read it too. My only requirements are that works be creative and engaging. I want to experience every style and theme I can.<br />
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I agree with your belief that creativity and realism are "in no way mutually exclusive." But experience has taught me that the pursuit of the latter is often used to disguise an inadequacy in the former. So I wouldn't say I am operating under a "false premise."<br />
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And I apologize to the author of this thread as this discussion seems to have strayed from the subject a bit. Responding here to Pate--once…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-22:537324:Comment:1840452009-02-22T17:11:43.065ZJon Loomishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
Responding here to Pate--once again the little reply tabs seem to have disappeared in an extended sub-thread.<br />
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Yes, if I was writing a story about thirteen-year-old boys, I'd want to give readers a sense of how they actually talk. I don't know any thirteen-year-old boys, though, and can't think of any reason I'd want to write about them--so as a real-world scenario it's not likely to happen. Nor would I be interested in writing about child molestation; not sure why anyone would, and not sure…
Responding here to Pate--once again the little reply tabs seem to have disappeared in an extended sub-thread.<br />
<br />
Yes, if I was writing a story about thirteen-year-old boys, I'd want to give readers a sense of how they actually talk. I don't know any thirteen-year-old boys, though, and can't think of any reason I'd want to write about them--so as a real-world scenario it's not likely to happen. Nor would I be interested in writing about child molestation; not sure why anyone would, and not sure how this equates, in any case, with grown-up, working-class characters talking to each other the way working-class grown-ups talk, in my experience.<br />
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I do, indeed, want to keep my characters as real and as engaging as I can make them, with the knowledge that not all potential readers are going to be comfortable with all of the language or images in my books--I do some pretty explicit stuff with sex and violence, too. That's fine--if people are put off by adult language/images, there are literally thousands of other fine crime writers they can turn to. Ultimately we write, or try to write, books that we'd want to read. That's pretty much the only restriction I impose: no matter what, it can't suck.<br />
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Also, yes, cozies by definition do not contain profanity, explicit sex, gore or much (if any) on-screen violence. Not at all my cuppa joe, obviously, but if people like them it's fine by me.<br />
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Again, I think you're setting up a false choice when you say you "want creativity, not necessarily realism." They're in no way mutually exclusive--that seems obvious to me. The authors I like manage to do both, in abundance, and also manage to make it look easy. That reminds me of the beginn…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1836382009-02-20T18:08:09.543ZJohn Dishonhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/whiteskwirl
That reminds me of the beginning of The Majestic (Jim Carrey) where they are talking about different ways to change Jim Carrey's character's script. It gets really ridiculous.
That reminds me of the beginning of The Majestic (Jim Carrey) where they are talking about different ways to change Jim Carrey's character's script. It gets really ridiculous. You may be right, Dana, I nev…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1836362009-02-20T18:06:33.618ZJohn McFetridgehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
You may be right, Dana, I never thought of it like that.<br />
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I just always figured serious writers had too low a bullshit-tolerance for everything that happens between the writing and the filming. From my experience (limited, as it is) all that stuff about so many hands on a screenplay and comments like, "Could Sam Spade be married, we could get Jennifer Aniston for this," really do happen all the time.
You may be right, Dana, I never thought of it like that.<br />
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I just always figured serious writers had too low a bullshit-tolerance for everything that happens between the writing and the filming. From my experience (limited, as it is) all that stuff about so many hands on a screenplay and comments like, "Could Sam Spade be married, we could get Jennifer Aniston for this," really do happen all the time. I agree with Jon. There are w…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1836322009-02-20T17:58:59.167ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
I agree with Jon. There are writers who use profanity as a crutch, but, when used well and in character, it's the same as any other language choices, and should be just as creative. I can't think of anything with more profanity than DEADWOOD, and few things have been better, or more cleverly, written.
I agree with Jon. There are writers who use profanity as a crutch, but, when used well and in character, it's the same as any other language choices, and should be just as creative. I can't think of anything with more profanity than DEADWOOD, and few things have been better, or more cleverly, written. Writing friends have told me…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1836282009-02-20T17:56:00.833ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
Writing friends have told me my writing is very visual, and have asked why I don't try a screenplay. I always answer the same thing: the parts of writing I enjoy most aren't in a screenplay. I'm talking about the descriptions, inner thoughts, and some other contextual things that writers can play with, but a screenwriter has to get into the dialog or stage direction. Once in a while I like to turn a felicitous phrase in describing someone's appearance, thoughts, or background, and there's no…
Writing friends have told me my writing is very visual, and have asked why I don't try a screenplay. I always answer the same thing: the parts of writing I enjoy most aren't in a screenplay. I'm talking about the descriptions, inner thoughts, and some other contextual things that writers can play with, but a screenwriter has to get into the dialog or stage direction. Once in a while I like to turn a felicitous phrase in describing someone's appearance, thoughts, or background, and there's no real place for that in a screenplay. (Of course, this could have something to do with why I'm not published, too.)<br />
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I wonder if that's what keeps someone who is writing something more "serious" from going direct to screenplay. The medium doesn't allow them to indulge what they like most about writing. I'm opposed to censorship. Th…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1835542009-02-20T14:22:38.724ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I'm opposed to censorship. This is not to say that I don't find much of what is "out there" (nasty term) appalling and that I don't react with anger at certain things (for example novels and short-stories that rely on sadistic sexual abuse of women for their sales appeal).<br />
As for realism in novels: you cannot clean up the language certain characters use without making the scene absurd. The language is part of the atmosphere and of the character. I don't know about explicit sex, but surely…
I'm opposed to censorship. This is not to say that I don't find much of what is "out there" (nasty term) appalling and that I don't react with anger at certain things (for example novels and short-stories that rely on sadistic sexual abuse of women for their sales appeal).<br />
As for realism in novels: you cannot clean up the language certain characters use without making the scene absurd. The language is part of the atmosphere and of the character. I don't know about explicit sex, but surely people feel something. If you don't use some detail, you may well end up writing the sort of "description" that appears on the final page of a Barbara Cartland romance and sends most readers into gales of laughter. The notion that we should wri…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-20:537324:Comment:1835382009-02-20T13:54:21.747ZPate Grantwellhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PateGrantwell
The notion that we should write the way people talk in real life comes from the keep-it-real school of creativity. It sounds like an attractive concept until you ponder what should be "kept real," and what should be supressed. Thirteen-year-olds also say "fuck" a lot. In fact, many of them, in conversation with their peers, swear more than adults. Should we write conversations between thirteen year olds with equal frankness, or should we sanitize them? What about stories about child…
The notion that we should write the way people talk in real life comes from the keep-it-real school of creativity. It sounds like an attractive concept until you ponder what should be "kept real," and what should be supressed. Thirteen-year-olds also say "fuck" a lot. In fact, many of them, in conversation with their peers, swear more than adults. Should we write conversations between thirteen year olds with equal frankness, or should we sanitize them? What about stories about child molestation? Should detailed descriptions of sexual intercouse between middle-aged men and adolescent girs be encouraged? Are we therefore writing "cozies" if we discourage or censor such explicitness?<br />
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To me the desire for candor holds a clear and present danger (please accept my apologies, Mr. Clancy). If we practise realism in one area, we should demonstrate it across the board. People say "fuck" in real life, they also have sex graphically in real life. Even many romance novels avoid it, and mainstream movies proscribe it.<br />
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I agree that there are times when nothing but realism and frankness will do, but I think restrictions can be overcome with creativity and that profanity generally subverts, rather than enhances creative dialog. Then agains, I guess it depends on one's expectations. I want creativity, not necessarily realism. Memoirs and documentaries are much better suited to frank depictions.<br />
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Out of the critiques my works have received, not one, not even the scathing ones, have pointed out the lack of profanity. I think I'll just take their names and continue showing my stuff to the same people. One of my favourites is a pam…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-19:537324:Comment:1834092009-02-19T23:49:37.245ZJohn McFetridgehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
One of my favourites is a pamphlet handed out by the studioes written by Ayn Rand. It laid out very clearly what movies should contain, including things like, "Don't diefy the common man," and "Don't smear industrialists."<br />
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Linda Richards has a new book out called <i>Death was in the Picture</i> that takes place in LA in the 30's and involves the production code.
One of my favourites is a pamphlet handed out by the studioes written by Ayn Rand. It laid out very clearly what movies should contain, including things like, "Don't diefy the common man," and "Don't smear industrialists."<br />
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Linda Richards has a new book out called <i>Death was in the Picture</i> that takes place in LA in the 30's and involves the production code. Yeah, but the Hays rules were…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-02-19:537324:Comment:1834032009-02-19T23:10:30.878ZJon Loomishttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
Yeah, but the Hays rules were absurd, and went way beyond limiting explicit sex, profanity or excessive violence; they were really about controlling the message and suppressing potentially subversive content.
Yeah, but the Hays rules were absurd, and went way beyond limiting explicit sex, profanity or excessive violence; they were really about controlling the message and suppressing potentially subversive content.