The fine line - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T08:56:54Zhttp://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/the-fine-line?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A398480&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI have problems with making k…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-11-02:537324:Comment:3987812014-11-02T10:47:23.102ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>I have problems with making killers likable. There has been too much of this lately and immature or disturbed people are influenced by it.</p>
<p>I also think that any criminal is going to rationalize his behavior in terms of putting the blame on his background, childhood abuse, or the injustices perpetrated against him by society. It's human nature to defend oneself. Whether that makes certain actions defensible is another issue. </p>
<p>My favorite crime novel is the police procedural…</p>
<p>I have problems with making killers likable. There has been too much of this lately and immature or disturbed people are influenced by it.</p>
<p>I also think that any criminal is going to rationalize his behavior in terms of putting the blame on his background, childhood abuse, or the injustices perpetrated against him by society. It's human nature to defend oneself. Whether that makes certain actions defensible is another issue. </p>
<p>My favorite crime novel is the police procedural which allows the author to weigh the claims of the criminal against those of society.</p>
<p></p> Fascinating. That's something…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-11-01:537324:Comment:3987302014-11-01T20:04:18.822ZDebbie Bennetthttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DebbieBennett
<p>Fascinating. That's something that somehow appears in everything I write - I like to mix up the bad guys and the good guys a little! The series I'm currently writing goes one step further as I took the bad guy from another series and I'm writing mostly from his point of view. I wanted to see if I could make the reader empathise with somebody who openly admits to having killed people and see things from his point of view. I think we're all a product of our childhood and our environment and we…</p>
<p>Fascinating. That's something that somehow appears in everything I write - I like to mix up the bad guys and the good guys a little! The series I'm currently writing goes one step further as I took the bad guy from another series and I'm writing mostly from his point of view. I wanted to see if I could make the reader empathise with somebody who openly admits to having killed people and see things from his point of view. I think we're all a product of our childhood and our environment and we choose our own paths accordingly.</p> What made Holmes great as a c…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-23:537324:Comment:3986582014-10-23T19:27:57.979ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
<p>What made Holmes great as a character was the timing: Doyle basically made the general people aware of forensic science. I love the stories, though I have some of the same concerns expressed here. What we need to do when assessing him is to think of how this must have been received when Doyle was writing in The Strand, and no one had seen anything like it before.</p>
<p>What made Holmes great as a character was the timing: Doyle basically made the general people aware of forensic science. I love the stories, though I have some of the same concerns expressed here. What we need to do when assessing him is to think of how this must have been received when Doyle was writing in The Strand, and no one had seen anything like it before.</p> I agree with everything you h…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-23:537324:Comment:3983822014-10-23T12:36:38.677ZRick Taylorhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/RickTaylor
I agree with everything you have said here. I'm so happy that you mentioned Sherlock Holmes, as great a character as he is I have always thought he was too close to perfect, granted he has the odd flaw but he was almost elevated to near superhuman which is what I struggle with but have never mentioned it, fearing it to be an act of sacrilege. The policeman example you gave is a perfect example of the type of character I was referring to. I'm not a fan of the glorification of violence or crime…
I agree with everything you have said here. I'm so happy that you mentioned Sherlock Holmes, as great a character as he is I have always thought he was too close to perfect, granted he has the odd flaw but he was almost elevated to near superhuman which is what I struggle with but have never mentioned it, fearing it to be an act of sacrilege. The policeman example you gave is a perfect example of the type of character I was referring to. I'm not a fan of the glorification of violence or crime but as I've mentioned in the past I do have an interest in criminal characters, but not the type who revel in their wrongs but those who doubt what they do, suffering and paying for in different ways all they've done. It shows then that good or justice comes through, even if only to a small degree or indirectly but again that's close to how the real world works. I agree with you Dana, I don'…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-23:537324:Comment:3984862014-10-23T01:58:23.531ZLiam Savillehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/LiamSaville
<p>I agree with you Dana, I don't agree with a lot of what he wrote either. For myself, in my own policing career, what I took out of it was that at times you may be faced with some difficult decisions. In making your decision, you have to be able to live with the choices you make as well as the consequences of those choices. It sounds simple, but isn't always the case.</p>
<p>I agree with you Dana, I don't agree with a lot of what he wrote either. For myself, in my own policing career, what I took out of it was that at times you may be faced with some difficult decisions. In making your decision, you have to be able to live with the choices you make as well as the consequences of those choices. It sounds simple, but isn't always the case.</p> The hero who is totally admir…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-22:537324:Comment:3984802014-10-22T20:39:45.067ZI. J. Parkerhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>The hero who is totally admirable is old and pretty much passe. In crime fiction, even the remote and brilliant detective showing off his superhuman intelligence is dated. This includes Sherlock Holmes in spite of the fact that he has a few questionable habits. Recent crime fiction portrays flawed characters who strive to be better. Policemen who drink and ruin their marriages for example. I do not deal with characters involved in a life of crime, but there, too, human traits make the story…</p>
<p>The hero who is totally admirable is old and pretty much passe. In crime fiction, even the remote and brilliant detective showing off his superhuman intelligence is dated. This includes Sherlock Holmes in spite of the fact that he has a few questionable habits. Recent crime fiction portrays flawed characters who strive to be better. Policemen who drink and ruin their marriages for example. I do not deal with characters involved in a life of crime, but there, too, human traits make the story more realistic. I only draw the line at glorifying a life of crime by making the criminal clever and admirable</p>
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<p>My own character is one of those men who fail occasionally, both in his public and private life, and suffer from guilt, but who persist against the odds to do the right thing. The heroic characteristics lie in this humble persistence.</p> Thanks for providing that lin…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-22:537324:Comment:3985732014-10-22T19:21:11.910ZDana Kinghttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
<p>Thanks for providing that link, Liam. I disagree with some of what he wrote, and I'm not sure about quite a bit of it, but it certainly is thought-provoking. And timely, for me, as the book I'm planning on writing next will force my detective to think about these issues, and the ambiguity of any such situation and its resolution.</p>
<p>Thanks for providing that link, Liam. I disagree with some of what he wrote, and I'm not sure about quite a bit of it, but it certainly is thought-provoking. And timely, for me, as the book I'm planning on writing next will force my detective to think about these issues, and the ambiguity of any such situation and its resolution.</p> Even some of the most mundane…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-22:537324:Comment:3986472014-10-22T18:52:40.096ZRick Taylorhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/RickTaylor
Even some of the most mundane, everyday things we do can be misunderstood and I find it interesting that in this genre that misunderstanding can be stretched to the extreme. And with what you attached, it's interesting because how far is too far? And also in doing as wrong so as to do something good, does that make it right? I think our thoughts will always be at conflict with our conscience over that subject. Some people won't even consider such questions, which is to be respected of course,…
Even some of the most mundane, everyday things we do can be misunderstood and I find it interesting that in this genre that misunderstanding can be stretched to the extreme. And with what you attached, it's interesting because how far is too far? And also in doing as wrong so as to do something good, does that make it right? I think our thoughts will always be at conflict with our conscience over that subject. Some people won't even consider such questions, which is to be respected of course, but to some people just even thinking along those lines can be seen to be questionable in itself. A chain reaction of more questions is set in motion from the asking of one question, which there is always going to be doubt and divide as to the answers. I suppose my character isn't…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-22:537324:Comment:3984762014-10-22T18:18:25.127ZRick Taylorhttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/RickTaylor
I suppose my character isn't an antihero, he's a needs must guy who at heart is a good person. The story is set in the bronx during the 1960s, raised in poverty, there's not many prospects for him so that's why he does what he does. He deals mostly with street gangs so what they lack in sophistication they make up for in savagery, violence surrounds him so he has not just bore witness but has on occasion had to defend himself with the same means, but again it's all both an element of his…
I suppose my character isn't an antihero, he's a needs must guy who at heart is a good person. The story is set in the bronx during the 1960s, raised in poverty, there's not many prospects for him so that's why he does what he does. He deals mostly with street gangs so what they lack in sophistication they make up for in savagery, violence surrounds him so he has not just bore witness but has on occasion had to defend himself with the same means, but again it's all both an element of his environment and the period the piece is set. With everything you said in your message you pretty much got right so I'm hoping it's more that you have great intuition then it is that my character creation is a bit too simple lol. Thank you very much for the comments and the wish of luck, I need it! Interesting topic. I can't he…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2014-10-22:537324:Comment:3985632014-10-22T06:06:21.026ZLiam Savillehttp://crimespace.ning.com/profile/LiamSaville
<p>Interesting topic. I can't help but think back to my policing studies and a paper by Carl B Klockars called, "The Dirty Harry Problem." <a href="http://www.kyoolee.net/dirty_harry_problem__the_-_klockars.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.kyoolee.net/dirty_harry_problem__the_-_klockars.pdf</a> </p>
<p>Klockars an associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Delaware posed the question, "When and to what extent does the morally good end warrant or justify an ethically,…</p>
<p>Interesting topic. I can't help but think back to my policing studies and a paper by Carl B Klockars called, "The Dirty Harry Problem." <a href="http://www.kyoolee.net/dirty_harry_problem__the_-_klockars.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.kyoolee.net/dirty_harry_problem__the_-_klockars.pdf</a> </p>
<p>Klockars an associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Delaware posed the question, "When and to what extent does the morally good end warrant or justify an ethically, politically, or legally dangerous means for its achievement?"</p>
<p>How many of us have had our fictional detectives cross the line, break the rules, or make ethically questionable decisions to get the job done? So many I'd suggest, that it's almost normal. Good vs evil is never black & white, neither in fiction or real life. </p>