Can there be good without bad?

[Bennett Kremen]

The opposite of criminality is, of course, morality. Crime And Punishement, that eternal, extrodinary novel, dealth with both and with that in mind, I tried to do the same in my tale, Savage Days Haunted Nights now available on Amazon. I'd appreciate hearing about other crime novels that seriously probe moral issues in a dramatic and exciting way, adding power to the story. I eagerly await being informed about this.
Bennett Kremen

[Bennett Kremen]

Thanks, Mr. Dishon. I have the feeling you're leading me in the right direction here. And, yes, I do know Camus' thoughts on moral ambiguity and how dicussions of crime can benefit from it. However, delving into crime in real life or in fiction in the contect of "moral relativism" often proves a hopeless, confusing swamp. To some extent though, moral relativism frequently is inescapible in understanding the origins of a crime, its psychology and social roots. For instance, many would argue that the Wall Street crash, which no doubt is rife with crime, shouldn't really be seen in a totally harsh light since those outragous CEO's ripping off billions were simply following the relativistic moral outlook of "greed is good", a central belief of many celebrated free market idealogs, and that these long admired corporate titans didn't really know that at bottom they were criminals injuring us all. Surely there's an urgent need now for a deeper understanding of morality and criminality, an underlying, abiding, mostly universal morality not religiously based but rooted in the natural world. And I've tried to weaved this into my crime novel, hoping to add power and meaning to it. For five years I've struggled to do this in a dramatic and arresting way mostly through plot and action alone. And I'm looking foward now to reading what sounds like quite relevant books that you're suggesting.

[John Dishon]

I recommend On Parole by Akira Yoshimura. I don't know if it quite meets the criteria you're looking for though. It's about a man who is released on parole after 15 years; his crime was murdering his wife. The novel is about his readjustment to life after prison; however, he can't escape his crime. It's a great book, even if it's not quite what you're looking for.

Also, there is Albert Camus. His work deals with this a lot. I'm guessing you're already familiar with him, though.

Outlaws of the Marsh might interest you too. It's a huge novel, about 2,000 pages, but it deals with a band of outlaws who all have become outlaws for various reasons. They're bad guys , yet they're also good guys. There's 108 main characters in the novel. One of them, Li Kui, is a brute who relished killing, yet he is an endearing character because of his humorous nature, but also because he is intensely loyal to the band's leader. All the characters in the novel have some king moral ambiguity about their situation.

[Bennett Kremen]

You're right, Mr. King, most criminals are morons. But then, of course, some of them aren't. Let me mention just a few as I did in my recent novel such as Benvenuto Cellini, who describes a murder he committed in his autobiography -- or that literary giant, Christopher Marlow, who killed a man in a duel or not least among many the Fifteenth Century genius painter, Caravaggio, who killed two men and was a hunted fugitive. So what I tried to do in my own recent book is use crime and criminality as a way to understand and feel something even more urgent in our lives, which is morality, not a simple minded, Puritanial version of this, but a dynatic force that is never absent in all human experience. Yes, crime's a breakdown, a pathology of a process that makes life possible. Indeed, morality's not just about being "nice" it's a vital and necessary condition for the very survival of the species. I've tried to write about this in a way that doesn't weaken the sting and impact of crime fiction, but rather enhances it.
I started this discussion, Mr. King, because I don't see why a blog with such a title as Crimespace can't go as deeply into this subject as humanly possible. And it needn't do this through discussing any supposed philosophical musings of criminal characters in mystery tales , but through action and ideas resonating somewhere in these stories. Thank you, sir, for your suggestions. I'll be looking into them.

[Dana King]

All crime, Mr. Kremen, deals with sociological and psychological issues; philosophy may not enter into it at all, beyond the thought process along the lines of, “I need money. I have a gun. That liquor store has money. I probably won’t get caught. Works for me.” A writer willing to reach far enough can always ascribe a philosophical motive to any crime like putting a coat of orange paint on the walls of a room with green trim. It can be done, but the appropriateness can be questioned.

Most criminals are morons, not to put too fine a point on it. Any philosophical musing they may have over their crimes or motives are probably developed during the fifteen to thirty years they have to ponder such things at state expense. Forget I mentioned Elmore Leonard. For the best indication of the philosophical depth of a criminal, read any of Connie Fletcher’s books, notably the first two, What Cops Know and Pure Cop. (Blue Blood by Edward Conlon is also a good example.) We’re not talking about deep thinkers here. Any philosophical rationalizations put on after the fact by a non-involved party are akin to putting gold paint on a turd.

[Bennett Kremen]

All crime, Mr. King, deals with weighty philosophical matters just as all life deals with biology. Surely you may not be aware, lets say, of your cell physiology, but it's certaily in the game with every breath you take. Richard Wright's Native Son most definitly deals with crime, with grizzly murder, in graphic detail. A more riveting description of a murder, you'll never find. But the source of the crime, the confusing moral ambiguities of that brutal act are also a significant part of that story and an equally dramatic one. I recently spent four years completing a crime novel totally dedicated to a page turning intensity, but there are many other aspects and levels to this book that make it even stronger. Just pure escapism would have drained the power from this tale. And I'm looking for other crime fiction that makes a similar effort. Also, it needn't be the main charater, the criminal, Mr. King, who faces any of these philosophical issues, but rather the author who should do this not through dull, philosophical discussion, but through gripping, breathtaking plot and action

[Dana King]

Not to dismiss Crime and Punsishment, but I don't think much crime deals with such weighty philosophical matters. Most criminal acts are probably logical next steps in the criminal's mind; I doubt a lot of thought goes into them, except possibly on how to pull it off without getting caught. While Doestoevsky writes masterfully of the good vs. evil aspects, the great majority of actual crime is far more mundane. Elmore Leonard's and Donald Westlake/Richard Stark's bad guys are probably closer to what criminals are really like and what they think, especially today.

[Bennett Kremen]

Certtainly, as IJ Parker commented, most mysteries deal with issues of morality. Yes, murder is bad and in most stories that's simply a given. But the truly great novels about crime, Crime And Punishment chief among them, offer dramatically more on this pressing subject. In that book, the murderer justifies his crime philosophically and the rest of the story not only diligently hunts him down, it also proves his brilliant but deadly theories wrong. So I'm asking for tips on crime tales that probe the meaning of crime, not just describe it, and in our morally confused world explain and reinforce the reasons and origins of our abhorrence of criminality not through dry, academic discussion but through action and plot. "Nice guys finish last* they say. Well, can crime fiction put the lie to that stupid idea through the devices of literary power?

[I. J. Parker]

Most mysteries deal with issues of morality.