Feedback: Where, when and how? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T12:20:09Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:144217?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A144546&xg_raw_resources=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks so much for that, Dan.…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-12:537324:Comment:1457362008-06-12T07:52:05.418Zcarole gillhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
Thanks so much for that, Dan.<br />
I did actually think of readers only viewing it. You've given me a great deal to think about.<br />
People do have personal agendas sometimes as well I know.<br />
I did show my first five chapters to two readers recently and the feedback was excellent. They wanted the next five or the rest, because they said they couldn't stand waiting!<br />
I did show the first chapter though to a writer and he liked it but also offered me some excellent advice about showing not telling, but he's…
Thanks so much for that, Dan.<br />
I did actually think of readers only viewing it. You've given me a great deal to think about.<br />
People do have personal agendas sometimes as well I know.<br />
I did show my first five chapters to two readers recently and the feedback was excellent. They wanted the next five or the rest, because they said they couldn't stand waiting!<br />
I did show the first chapter though to a writer and he liked it but also offered me some excellent advice about showing not telling, but he's a friend (no agenda). Having said that, when I pass around the finished final draft, I know I shouldn't go to friends (as you said).<br />
I'm sure you're ahead of me, Dan! My third draft is rapidly turning into a fourth--because "I always see things.." if you know what I mean! don't however want to fall into the obsessive fixer uper looney tune who will never be able to finish my work!<br />
I will take your advice because I see a great deal of logic there, it was kind of you to take the time to give it to me.<br />
Again thanks. I see. i think that's great b…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453502008-06-09T13:57:25.792Zcarole gillhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
I see. i think that's great because they are people who know the craft and what they're doing. they're evaluating it on a certain level.<br />
interesting that they don't write mysteries. perhaps that's better.<br />
thanks I.J.
I see. i think that's great because they are people who know the craft and what they're doing. they're evaluating it on a certain level.<br />
interesting that they don't write mysteries. perhaps that's better.<br />
thanks I.J. Carole, they are all writers…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453482008-06-09T13:53:28.920ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Carole, they are all writers and mostly published, though perhaps more modestly. Some write short stories, and the novelists are POD-published. Their educational backgrounds are varied, all the way from a few years of college to Ph.D. And, it should be noted, they don't write mysteries.
Carole, they are all writers and mostly published, though perhaps more modestly. Some write short stories, and the novelists are POD-published. Their educational backgrounds are varied, all the way from a few years of college to Ph.D. And, it should be noted, they don't write mysteries. It's a different perspective,…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453282008-06-09T10:40:36.920ZSandra Ruttanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sandramre
It's a different perspective, Eric, although I know that now whether or not work has been posted online has an impact on publishing contracts and can be an issue for some publishers. I specifically said, don't post it on a blog and take random comments. That's different than even forming a critiquing group online - which I have participated in as part of the old Mystery Circus - which involved exchanging work with people I've never met and in some cases, don't know at all. I had no problems…
It's a different perspective, Eric, although I know that now whether or not work has been posted online has an impact on publishing contracts and can be an issue for some publishers. I specifically said, don't post it on a blog and take random comments. That's different than even forming a critiquing group online - which I have participated in as part of the old Mystery Circus - which involved exchanging work with people I've never met and in some cases, don't know at all. I had no problems with that personally, but some of the experiences I've touched on are from other people I have known.<br />
<br />
Saying all that, anything posted in whole or in part online isn't eligible for submission to Spinetingler. If people can read it elsewhere for free, why should we pay even the little bit we do for it? The exception is when I approached people for things that had been taken down from FITG, but there was also no payment involved. Writers should always consider where they want their work to end up, and whether or not online posting may jeopardize their ability to place the work later.<br />
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I've also known people who shared work as part of an in-person critique group, who found some commentary so difficult to deal with they stopped writing. Of course we all know you have to learn to get a thick skin, <b>but</b> if extremely harsh critique comes back that you're not ready for at that time (maybe you're very early on in your writing experience) and it deters you from writing at all, it's not helpful. I'm not saying get in a group with people who'll stroke your ego - not for a second - but in one particular case I'm aware that one person in the group was just cruel. They felt threatened by everyone else and the attacks became personal. And if you're newer to the process, you never know what kind of impact you might have on you.<br />
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And the big thing with the typos was, some people said, "There are some typos." Nobody told me what page they were on, so it's not helpful at all, and it wasn't the primary feedback I was looking for. As secondary, sure, great. If you're circulating work, it does help if (over time) you have a sense of the nature of feedback you'll get from different people so that you can target your readers.<br />
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From the other side of the coin, I try to always ask what the person's looking for. I've offered critique sometimes in the past, to be told the work is done, sold or in submission and they aren't making changes. That's the "tell me I'm wonderful" writer. Sometimes, people only want input on one specific thing in the story. If something else is screaming at you as a problem, approach with caution. If they said they only wanted input on X, ask if they're interested in hearing another observation before giving input on Y. Again, going back to past experiences others have had, a whole critique group disbanded over tensions from those kinds of problems.<br />
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Of course, I'm also citing negative examples specifically, for a reason. If you prepare yourself for the worst-case scenario, it can only be better than you think it will be. The worst thing to do is think the process will be smooth and easy. That's setting yourself up for a fall.<br />
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Oh, and another fun one is people who try to re-write the story for you. You need discerning readers who try to get what you're doing and assess whether or not it works in that context, not people who try to make your hardboiled work a cozy or vice versa. Thanks Eric.
I see your point…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453222008-06-09T08:50:54.826Zcarole gillhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
Thanks Eric.<br />
I see your points. I can also see that the more feedback you get, the better it is.<br />
I suppose once I would step into the water, I'll be more brave. I guess that's how skins get tougher right?!
Thanks Eric.<br />
I see your points. I can also see that the more feedback you get, the better it is.<br />
I suppose once I would step into the water, I'll be more brave. I guess that's how skins get tougher right?! I.J. I certainly admire you v…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453182008-06-09T08:48:05.883Zcarole gillhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
I.J. I certainly admire you very much for your principles--not changing the book, but sticking to it! truly I do. And I have to absolutely agree that the reader's reactions are reader reactions!<br />
I thought about that. But here's a question: are they writers? or are they only readers? just wondering.<br />
I guess you're right too, about the spelling--can't zip it out of the printer like it's perfect and wonderful and full of typos!<br />
as always, thanks I.J.
I.J. I certainly admire you very much for your principles--not changing the book, but sticking to it! truly I do. And I have to absolutely agree that the reader's reactions are reader reactions!<br />
I thought about that. But here's a question: are they writers? or are they only readers? just wondering.<br />
I guess you're right too, about the spelling--can't zip it out of the printer like it's perfect and wonderful and full of typos!<br />
as always, thanks I.J. thanks!
very good, clair. Whe…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1453162008-06-09T08:28:10.254Zcarole gillhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/PhyllisDietrichson
thanks!<br />
very good, clair. Where can I buy some thick skin?<br />
seriously, I'm learning and it's getting thicker daily.
thanks!<br />
very good, clair. Where can I buy some thick skin?<br />
seriously, I'm learning and it's getting thicker daily. I'll put in here, that what y…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-09:537324:Comment:1452962008-06-09T03:04:50.434ZClair Dicksonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/ClairDickson
I'll put in here, that what you write is important, too. If I were to take my novel to a critique group, I might need to bring along smelling salts, too. (And that's only in the first chapter... ;-)<br />
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I'd find a handful of people and have them read just the first 3 chapters. The ones you find most useful would be the ones to approach about reading the rest.<br />
<br />
And put your thick skin on.<br />
<br />
A beta reader who won't challenge you to be a better writer is about as useful as an umbrella underwater.
I'll put in here, that what you write is important, too. If I were to take my novel to a critique group, I might need to bring along smelling salts, too. (And that's only in the first chapter... ;-)<br />
<br />
I'd find a handful of people and have them read just the first 3 chapters. The ones you find most useful would be the ones to approach about reading the rest.<br />
<br />
And put your thick skin on.<br />
<br />
A beta reader who won't challenge you to be a better writer is about as useful as an umbrella underwater. I have a slightly different t…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-08:537324:Comment:1452812008-06-08T22:18:15.901ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I have a slightly different take on this, though I don't share with strangers any longer. I got to know my readers and their foibles. First, I never turn over anything but the cleanest, multiply revised copy I can manage. Their catching tyupos at that level is useful. Second, I take their comments as reader reactions. When they agree with each other, I reconsider. Nobody in the group minces words. We're there to work, not to be flattered and encouraged. And yes, I've had my feelings hurt and I…
I have a slightly different take on this, though I don't share with strangers any longer. I got to know my readers and their foibles. First, I never turn over anything but the cleanest, multiply revised copy I can manage. Their catching tyupos at that level is useful. Second, I take their comments as reader reactions. When they agree with each other, I reconsider. Nobody in the group minces words. We're there to work, not to be flattered and encouraged. And yes, I've had my feelings hurt and I have hurt the feelings of the others. You fix whatever it is and get over it.<br />
But ultimately you have to be your own judge. I just told my agent that I wasn't going to change the novel she had problems with. I think we're looking for two different books, she and I. It may mean that it won't get published, but changing it will not guarantee publication either and I would regret it bitterly. I've been sharing my work wit…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2008-06-08:537324:Comment:1452712008-06-08T21:29:21.013ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
I've been sharing my work with strangers over the internet for four years now, Sandra, and I haven't experienced any of the debilitations you've described. I'd add that it's not so much what individuals say, but what is said collectively, when you're getting lots of feedback from lots of strangers on the web. You look for the commonalities across crits. You don't have to know why some stranger has said something; you just need to know what was said, and determine for yourself what you think of…
I've been sharing my work with strangers over the internet for four years now, Sandra, and I haven't experienced any of the debilitations you've described. I'd add that it's not so much what individuals say, but what is said collectively, when you're getting lots of feedback from lots of strangers on the web. You look for the commonalities across crits. You don't have to know why some stranger has said something; you just need to know what was said, and determine for yourself what you think of it, partly based on what others have said, and you certainly don't need to worry about someone stealing your ideas. This ain't Hollywood.<br />
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And as I'd mentioned, you do this and eventually you'll find individuals in cyberspace you connect with enough to develop a real relationship with, and you can find yourself sharing entire WIPs and having precisely the kind of relationship you seem to value.<br />
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Agree with you on the trust your guts part, though.