How important in grammar? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T16:02:27Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:35897?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A49366&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noNot in my state, Dave. And "s…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:493662007-06-19T03:56:09.804ZBrian Thorntonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BrianThornton
Not in my state, Dave. And "state" is different from "national," which was how you initially framed your argument. In my state they grade on conventions (grammar) as an integral part of whether or not a student passes our state-mandated, standardized tests.
Not in my state, Dave. And "state" is different from "national," which was how you initially framed your argument. In my state they grade on conventions (grammar) as an integral part of whether or not a student passes our state-mandated, standardized tests. Oh Dave, Dave, Dave.
Not "al…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-19:537324:Comment:493642007-06-19T03:43:38.139ZBrian Thorntonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BrianThornton
Oh Dave, Dave, Dave.<br />
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Not "all" teachers want to make students smarter (you can't, anyway. You can educate someone, but you can't raise their level of native intelligence. That is an innate trait.). Not "all" teachers care whether their students grow up to be well-rounded young men and women. Just like not "all" cops are heroic, and not "all" firefighters look good on calendars.<br />
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As an English teacher, you of all people (no pun intended) ought to be painfully aware of of the futility of…
Oh Dave, Dave, Dave.<br />
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Not "all" teachers want to make students smarter (you can't, anyway. You can educate someone, but you can't raise their level of native intelligence. That is an innate trait.). Not "all" teachers care whether their students grow up to be well-rounded young men and women. Just like not "all" cops are heroic, and not "all" firefighters look good on calendars.<br />
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As an English teacher, you of all people (no pun intended) ought to be painfully aware of of the futility of speaking in generalities. If communication is in fact the quest for "meaning," then the more specific, the more precise your language, your presentation, the less ambiguity attached to it, the better.<br />
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Period.<br />
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I too teach eighth grade. I've taught both English and History at every level from sixth grade to community college, so my experience here is pretty broad.<br />
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Frankly, I don't blame you for not really wanting to teach "grammar." I don't like it much myself. For me, it's always been intuitive. I liken it to someone with an affinity for math being harnessed to teaching kids their times tables all day long for a month and a half.<br />
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And that is exactly why it is so important. Grammar is the foundation of meaning. It is the consensus set of rules that allows us to speak to each other clearly, succinctly, and effectively, regardless of what idea we are attempting to communicate. And just as grammar would be nothing but empty rules without the ideas that illuminate it, those ideas would be a pretty palette of fuzzy colors without the structure of grammar.<br />
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Not the one without the other. Not the other without the one.<br />
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All the Best-<br />
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Brian Thornton I enjoyed someone's previous…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-15:537324:Comment:487772007-06-15T19:16:53.113ZSunflowercathttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sunflowercat
I enjoyed someone's previous comment likening writing to carpentry, so I'll continue in that vein: if a writer doesn't have good command of grammar, he's building with substandard materials. Everyone needs to be able to communicate clearly, whether they write more than the occasional Christmas card or not, and bad grammar will derail whatever they're writing. If I read something with flawed grammar that isn't intended to be flawed, it's all I will remember -- the content becomes secondary to…
I enjoyed someone's previous comment likening writing to carpentry, so I'll continue in that vein: if a writer doesn't have good command of grammar, he's building with substandard materials. Everyone needs to be able to communicate clearly, whether they write more than the occasional Christmas card or not, and bad grammar will derail whatever they're writing. If I read something with flawed grammar that isn't intended to be flawed, it's all I will remember -- the content becomes secondary to the mistake.<br />
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I couldn't agree more that dialogue is an exception, though. This is possibly the best com…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-15:537324:Comment:487752007-06-15T19:11:07.561ZSunflowercathttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Sunflowercat
This is possibly the best comment I've seen all day.
This is possibly the best comment I've seen all day. Well, I do cringe if I see ve…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-08:537324:Comment:469472007-06-08T16:20:19.482ZLourdes Fernandezhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/lourdes63
Well, I do cringe if I see very bad grammar or typos -- for example, when I saw the title of this posting -- "in" grammar instead of "is." I see that all the time in books, and it does stop me. It takes me out of the story for a few seconds. But that may also be because I'm a copy editor, so it's especially vexing to see something hasn't been fixed. I do agree, though, that in writing, a writer should just let words flow, and go back later to fix the grammar. That said, I don't think you should…
Well, I do cringe if I see very bad grammar or typos -- for example, when I saw the title of this posting -- "in" grammar instead of "is." I see that all the time in books, and it does stop me. It takes me out of the story for a few seconds. But that may also be because I'm a copy editor, so it's especially vexing to see something hasn't been fixed. I do agree, though, that in writing, a writer should just let words flow, and go back later to fix the grammar. That said, I don't think you should just let grammar slide -- judging by signs I see on businesses and other public displays, we need to teach more grammar, rather than less. Why does everyone have a prob…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-02:537324:Comment:454512007-06-02T10:29:04.682ZTodd Robinsonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BigDaddyThug
Why does everyone have a problem with my Granma?
Why does everyone have a problem with my Granma? Right, Gerald. We don't want…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-05-16:537324:Comment:388762007-05-16T22:55:22.703ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
Right, Gerald. We don't want our private eye novels to read like biology textbooks, and vice versa. The Road, with its goofy punctuation, won the Pulitzer this year, but I'm pretty sure Cormac McCarthy was quite aware of every rule he broke.<br />
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Ever read any essays by Raymond Chandler? Very scholarly. It's hard to believe they're from the same writer who gave us the Philip Marlowe novels. Chandler had an exquisite command of language and voice, something all professional writers should strive for.
Right, Gerald. We don't want our private eye novels to read like biology textbooks, and vice versa. The Road, with its goofy punctuation, won the Pulitzer this year, but I'm pretty sure Cormac McCarthy was quite aware of every rule he broke.<br />
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Ever read any essays by Raymond Chandler? Very scholarly. It's hard to believe they're from the same writer who gave us the Philip Marlowe novels. Chandler had an exquisite command of language and voice, something all professional writers should strive for. ha... at the "write" time. I'…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-05-16:537324:Comment:388372007-05-16T22:24:36.894ZDave Whitehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DaveWhite
ha... at the "write" time. I'm such a cut up.
ha... at the "write" time. I'm such a cut up. I can spot a literary ignoram…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-05-16:537324:Comment:388362007-05-16T22:23:46.281ZGerald Sohttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/gerald986
<i>I can spot a literary ignoramus on page one, and so can any editor. The book might be the next DaVinci Code, but unfortunately it will never be read.</i><br />
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One of the most important lessons is that writing/speech doesn't exist in a vacuum. A writer/speaker can insist on his own use of language, but if some or all of his message doesn't reach readers <b>because</b> of the way it's phrased, his assertion of personality is pointless.<br />
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Similarly, there is no "perfect grammar" that exists…
<i>I can spot a literary ignoramus on page one, and so can any editor. The book might be the next DaVinci Code, but unfortunately it will never be read.</i><br />
<br />
One of the most important lessons is that writing/speech doesn't exist in a vacuum. A writer/speaker can insist on his own use of language, but if some or all of his message doesn't reach readers <b>because</b> of the way it's phrased, his assertion of personality is pointless.<br />
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Similarly, there is no "perfect grammar" that exists independent of context. Writers can only strive for the "best" ways to deliver messages given the situation, setting, etc. Good for you, Dave. I hope yo…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-05-16:537324:Comment:388352007-05-16T22:20:32.991ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
Good for you, Dave. I hope your students are absorbing it. I have a fourteen-year-old who's a math wiz but hates to read books and hates to write, so I know it can be a struggle with some of the kids.
Good for you, Dave. I hope your students are absorbing it. I have a fourteen-year-old who's a math wiz but hates to read books and hates to write, so I know it can be a struggle with some of the kids.