Define Pulp? - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T10:48:08Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:51237?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A51244&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI feel the same way, John. I…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-29:537324:Comment:514462007-06-29T05:33:01.748ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
I feel the same way, John. I love a good debate with someone who's intelligent and doesn't take things personally.<br />
<br />
Yep. Great essay. And like all good literature, open to more than one interpretation. Thanks!
I feel the same way, John. I love a good debate with someone who's intelligent and doesn't take things personally.<br />
<br />
Yep. Great essay. And like all good literature, open to more than one interpretation. Thanks! I don't...I believe it was in…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-29:537324:Comment:514232007-06-29T00:38:20.487ZTodd Masonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/ToddMason
I don't...I believe it was in one of his 1970s columns in THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, which SIU Press was going to publish as a companion to his 1960s GALAXY columns volume (BENCHMARKS), but SIU Press was defunded before they got that far, if indeed they were going forward. So, that narrows it down to about 80 or so review-essays...big help, I know. And you're quite welcome, Patti...though, again, it was advanced even by Budrys, as I remember his argument, as a tendency rather…
I don't...I believe it was in one of his 1970s columns in THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, which SIU Press was going to publish as a companion to his 1960s GALAXY columns volume (BENCHMARKS), but SIU Press was defunded before they got that far, if indeed they were going forward. So, that narrows it down to about 80 or so review-essays...big help, I know. And you're quite welcome, Patti...though, again, it was advanced even by Budrys, as I remember his argument, as a tendency rather than an iron rule or defining trait, one which pulp fiction might be said to share with most if not all adventure fiction. Do you have a link for what B…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-29:537324:Comment:514122007-06-29T00:10:39.671ZJohn Dishonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/whiteskwirl
Do you have a link for what Budrys is saying? I'm interested in reading that.
Do you have a link for what Budrys is saying? I'm interested in reading that. A very interesting point, Tod…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-29:537324:Comment:514112007-06-29T00:06:28.802ZPatricia Abbotthttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/pattinase
A very interesting point, Todd. Neither of us had thought of pulp being distinguished by its method of problem-solving. Thanks.
A very interesting point, Todd. Neither of us had thought of pulp being distinguished by its method of problem-solving. Thanks. The problem lies in the half-…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:514072007-06-28T23:27:23.321ZTodd Masonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/ToddMason
The problem lies in the half-educated, in academe and elsewhere including those who have no excuse, misusing and misrepresenting the term and others allowing the misuse to go unchallenged. Though if there is one thing that tends to distinguish pulp fiction as a whole from other modes, according to writer, critic and editor Algis Budrys, is the tendency to revert to action, violence or otherwise, at a point in a story that other modes of fiction might instead go in for some sort of discussion or…
The problem lies in the half-educated, in academe and elsewhere including those who have no excuse, misusing and misrepresenting the term and others allowing the misuse to go unchallenged. Though if there is one thing that tends to distinguish pulp fiction as a whole from other modes, according to writer, critic and editor Algis Budrys, is the tendency to revert to action, violence or otherwise, at a point in a story that other modes of fiction might instead go in for some sort of discussion or reflection. Even there, Budrys is clearly referring to most but not all of what was being published in the pulps of the 1940s and staggering into the 1950s, when they were supplanted by paperbacks and digest-sized fiction magazines (note the similar misuse, by the Beatles among others, of "paperback" as adjective). There were utterly sophisticated stories published in pulps ranging from <b>Bluebook</b> to <b>Argosy</b> to <b>Weird Tales</b> to <b>Planet Stories</b> to <b>Detective Story Magazine</b>, usually cheek-by-jowl with both high- and low-grade bubblegum. Same would be true of contemporaneous issues of <b>The Saturday Evening Post</b> and <b>Colliers</b>, and of <b>The Yale Review</b> and <b>Prairie Schooner</b>. The flavor of the bubblegum might differ. No worries, Jude. I know the…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:513612007-06-28T17:26:17.517ZJohn Dishonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/whiteskwirl
No worries, Jude. I know the difference between a quality discussion and ignorant flaming. Actually, I think it's sad that you feel a P.S. is needed to clarify, because it is true that you can't have anything close to a decent discussion on this forum without someone taking offense and misquoting you. This place is pretty touchy for a group of crime writers.<br />
<br />
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, though. I still stand by my interpretation of Chandler's essay. I think we…
No worries, Jude. I know the difference between a quality discussion and ignorant flaming. Actually, I think it's sad that you feel a P.S. is needed to clarify, because it is true that you can't have anything close to a decent discussion on this forum without someone taking offense and misquoting you. This place is pretty touchy for a group of crime writers.<br />
<br />
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, though. I still stand by my interpretation of Chandler's essay. I think we can both agree, though, that it's a good essay. Thanks again. I printed this…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:513172007-06-28T11:58:26.353ZPatricia Abbotthttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/pattinase
Thanks again. I printed this out for him to use. I can see the subject can be contentious within or without academia. I think it's because judgments are being made as to quality. The old school was very quick to make judgments based on one set of criteria, the new school perhaps overly egalitarian-a classic work no more valued than a classic comic.
Thanks again. I printed this out for him to use. I can see the subject can be contentious within or without academia. I think it's because judgments are being made as to quality. The old school was very quick to make judgments based on one set of criteria, the new school perhaps overly egalitarian-a classic work no more valued than a classic comic. SASE, Dennis. Sorry. ;)tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:512982007-06-28T06:43:21.020ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
SASE, Dennis. Sorry. ;)
SASE, Dennis. Sorry. ;) Whether or not Chandler was b…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:512942007-06-28T06:31:02.325ZDennis Venterhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DVenter
Whether or not Chandler was being his own version of literary snob is something for way brighter minds than mine to debate, but this--<br />
<br />
"All men must escape at times from the deadly rhythm of their private thoughts."<br />
<br />
--damn, this was one of those BOING moments. All these years I believed I was reading to escape the world beyond me, when -- gasp -- it appears maybe I've been escaping the world within me?<br />
<br />
Thanks for the quote, Jude, no seriously. So where do I send my therapist's bill?
Whether or not Chandler was being his own version of literary snob is something for way brighter minds than mine to debate, but this--<br />
<br />
"All men must escape at times from the deadly rhythm of their private thoughts."<br />
<br />
--damn, this was one of those BOING moments. All these years I believed I was reading to escape the world beyond me, when -- gasp -- it appears maybe I've been escaping the world within me?<br />
<br />
Thanks for the quote, Jude, no seriously. So where do I send my therapist's bill? To me, Chandler is clearly st…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-06-28:537324:Comment:512902007-06-28T05:45:50.574ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
To me, Chandler is clearly stating that the detective story, done well, is as valid as any other art form. He clearly, IMHO, denounces literary snobbery.<br />
<br />
Speaking of Hammett, he says:<br />
<br />
"...he demonstrated that the detective story can be important writing. The Maltese Falcon may or may not be a work of genius, but an art which is capable of it is not "by hypothesis" incapable of anything. Once a detective story can be as good as this, only the pedants will deny that it could be even…
To me, Chandler is clearly stating that the detective story, done well, is as valid as any other art form. He clearly, IMHO, denounces literary snobbery.<br />
<br />
Speaking of Hammett, he says:<br />
<br />
"...he demonstrated that the detective story can be important writing. The Maltese Falcon may or may not be a work of genius, but an art which is capable of it is not "by hypothesis" incapable of anything. Once a detective story can be as good as this, only the pedants will deny that it could be even better."<br />
<br />
What is unequivocal about that?<br />
<br />
Yes, Chandler criticized the genre, because there was a ton of trash being published at the time. You have to put it in historical context. That ton of trash sold because of people eagerly wrapped their hands around anything with a hint of sex and violence. Think about the "literary" fiction that was being published during those years. Joyce's <i>Ulysses</i> ring a bell? Steinbeck's <i>The Grapes of Wrath?</i> Pulp fiction narrowly made it through the censors' cracks, and the public clamored for more and more. It wasn't considered "real" literature, so the powers from above largely ignored it. That doesn't mean that there weren't some important, lasting works of literature being created within the genre.<br />
<br />
Chandler's essay, I think, <i>was</i> in defense of detective fiction. It was a back-door way of saying, "Look. We can matter, too. We deserve some recognition, too. We have game, too." And the essay is still relevent, because there are still literary snobs out there who dismiss genre fiction as trash. There are still pseudo-intellectuals out there who can't publish a literary novel, so they "lower" themselves to write and talk about mysteries. Horror stories. Erotica. Westerns. Science fiction. All I can say to those types is, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass."<br />
<br />
If anyone thinks it's easy to write, say, the kinds of books that Stephen King writes, or James Patterson, or...you name it, then by all means go for it. I think you'll soon find that you're not the literary genius you thought you were.<br />
<br />
P.S. This little rant wasn't specifically directed at you, John, or anyone else. Just getting some thoughts off my chest. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.