Story, Narrative And Heavy Lifting - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T14:07:34Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/537324:Topic:6518?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI saw a book in a store today…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-17:537324:Comment:72042007-03-17T12:36:59.891ZDaniel Hatadihttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/danielhatadi
I saw a book in a store today, called ANONYMOUS LAWYER. It's written in the form of a blog, with comments. Date, heading, text body, comments. I've seen people put stories up as serial fiction, on blogs. And Bill Crider made a whole blog into a story, comments included.<br />
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I think the art of storytelling as an oral art (cut the snickering, you up the back), allows for a certain amount of interaction from the audience. The storyteller listens to their reactions and modifies the story to suit.<br />
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Why…
I saw a book in a store today, called ANONYMOUS LAWYER. It's written in the form of a blog, with comments. Date, heading, text body, comments. I've seen people put stories up as serial fiction, on blogs. And Bill Crider made a whole blog into a story, comments included.<br />
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I think the art of storytelling as an oral art (cut the snickering, you up the back), allows for a certain amount of interaction from the audience. The storyteller listens to their reactions and modifies the story to suit.<br />
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Why not use a blog to do the same thing? Except take it further, and rather than just tailoring the story to the readers, <i>change</i> the story based on the comments they make. i think non-linear stories li…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-17:537324:Comment:70562007-03-17T01:09:34.256ZAnne Frasierhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/annefrasier
i think non-linear stories like memento probably work much better as movies than books. as viewers, we forgive so much more, and there is so much going on, engaging us on a sensory level, while the logical part of our brain is taking a backseat to everything that's happening in front of us. if we had the same story on paper we'd be annoyed. i would be annoyed, anyway. so many times i watch a non-linear story and think you'd never get away with that on paper.
i think non-linear stories like memento probably work much better as movies than books. as viewers, we forgive so much more, and there is so much going on, engaging us on a sensory level, while the logical part of our brain is taking a backseat to everything that's happening in front of us. if we had the same story on paper we'd be annoyed. i would be annoyed, anyway. so many times i watch a non-linear story and think you'd never get away with that on paper. I knew I was forgetting somet…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:68432007-03-16T20:16:02.025ZTiffany Leighhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/tiffanyleigh33
I knew I was forgetting something -- this came out recently and it's pretty cool and participatory, or more so than the CYOA's: Sean Stewart wrote a book called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cathys-Book-Found-Call-650-266-8233/dp/B000MR8TEK/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-7510898-2993668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174075378&sr=8-3">Cathy's Book: If Found Call 650-266-8233</a>. It looks and acts like a diary, and inside are a packet of "clues" (a bar napkin, receipts, etc). In the entries, which are…
I knew I was forgetting something -- this came out recently and it's pretty cool and participatory, or more so than the CYOA's: Sean Stewart wrote a book called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cathys-Book-Found-Call-650-266-8233/dp/B000MR8TEK/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-7510898-2993668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174075378&sr=8-3">Cathy's Book: If Found Call 650-266-8233</a>. It looks and acts like a diary, and inside are a packet of "clues" (a bar napkin, receipts, etc). In the entries, which are graphically designed to look handwritten with scribbles and doodles on the pages, are also "facts" or random numbers to call which the reader can call or research online. <br />
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Also there's a game called <a href="http://www.perplexcity.com/">Perplex City</a> --a series of collectible cards, each with a different puzzle or game on them. You then log into the site online and submit answers to gain points. Perplex City is a fictional place, but it has a real-time footprint -- websites, secret email addresses, phone calls -- which make the game very addicting.<br />
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The puzzles collectively lead to a "treasure" buried somewhere in real life, and if you collect enough cards and solve enough puzzles, you can find it's location and dig it up. Someone recently did in the UK for Version 1, and V.2 just came out. I've actually thought SPOON R…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:68202007-03-16T20:04:00.456ZKeith Snyderhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/noteon
I've actually thought SPOON RIVER ANTHOLOGY would be a good model for online nonlinear fiction. Lots of little modules that can link in just about any order and give rise to a cohesive whole.
I've actually thought SPOON RIVER ANTHOLOGY would be a good model for online nonlinear fiction. Lots of little modules that can link in just about any order and give rise to a cohesive whole. Thank you all. Certainly food…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:67912007-03-16T19:29:27.071ZStephen Blackmoorehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/sblackmoore
Thank you all. Certainly food for thought.<br />
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I happen to actually agree with Rob's point that, in the long run I don't see how it's sustainable. It also just occurred to me that I'm talking about two different things here: non-linearity and participatory story-telling.<br />
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The movie "Memento" is non-linear story-telling. You're getting the story in bits and pieces, forward and backward, but it's still a cohesive structure. The foreshadowing is sometimes ante-shadowing (I just made up a word!) and…
Thank you all. Certainly food for thought.<br />
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I happen to actually agree with Rob's point that, in the long run I don't see how it's sustainable. It also just occurred to me that I'm talking about two different things here: non-linearity and participatory story-telling. <br />
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The movie "Memento" is non-linear story-telling. You're getting the story in bits and pieces, forward and backward, but it's still a cohesive structure. The foreshadowing is sometimes ante-shadowing (I just made up a word!) and what's already just happened in the story isn't necessarily what's happened for the viewer. <br />
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As to participatory story-telling, yeah, I think a paper book would have a lot of trouble. By its nature it's not interactive. It doesn't talk back to you and ask what you think would happen next. <br />
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But electronically is a different story. I'm thinking in particular of "I Love Bees", which was a web-based viral marketing campaign for the video game Halo 2, where it was a combination of serialized fiction, emails that would get sent to readers and constantly updated reactions to reader participation. Fiction, certainly, but not a novel. At least not in any conventional sense of the word.<br />
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I'm thinking that what I'm talking about would have to be a completely different format. Choose Your Own Adventures…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:67772007-03-16T19:11:00.519ZTiffany Leighhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/tiffanyleigh33
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/TiffLeigh/Humor/lavhoes1.jpg"></img><br />
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Choose Your Own Adventures are a huge reason that I write today. I remember a contest they sponsored where the winner would get their own book published in the series. My effort sucked. But I was also 12.<br />
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In addition to LIFE'S LOTTERY by Kim Newman the idea of multiple endings usually is a "novelty" -- some lesser "chick lit" knockoff CYOA's I can't recall (one was tongue-in-cheek where you tried to score with someone at a bar).<br />
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And you also reminded me of the movie "Clue" --…
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/TiffLeigh/Humor/lavhoes1.jpg"/><br />
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Choose Your Own Adventures are a huge reason that I write today. I remember a contest they sponsored where the winner would get their own book published in the series. My effort sucked. But I was also 12. <br />
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In addition to LIFE'S LOTTERY by Kim Newman the idea of multiple endings usually is a "novelty" -- some lesser "chick lit" knockoff CYOA's I can't recall (one was tongue-in-cheek where you tried to score with someone at a bar). <br />
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And you also reminded me of the movie "Clue" -- which during its theatrical run, had three different endings (A, B, C) that varied depending on which theater you went to see it. (Ending "A," which was homage to "Murder On the Orient Express," was the best one and thankfully the first one I saw. The one where Peacock did it was the worst). <br />
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Under the premise that a videogame or a book or a painting or a film can all be "art," -- because they are all creations -- what happens is that the harder one aspires for something as true-to-life as possible, one will never ever get close enough to the actual "stuff" of truth and real life. <br />
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As interactive as real life is art can't ever reach it. You'll always fall short because the reader, even with their own input, is still on a linear or at least "binary" dynamic with the creator -- you say something, they respond. You post here, I post back. You write something, they read. You pray, they listen. You paint something, they react to how it looks. You design a virtual world to roam in and inhabit and like Second Life or World of Warcraft, there are still limits -- you can only do what's been thought out or pre-programmed. <br />
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And "joint" or "collective" dialogue -- a chat room, a quorum, an episode of MST3K -- still has that tennisy give and take because everyone all at once often leads to unintelligible cacophony, mob mentalities, groupthink. <br />
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An interesting exercise Penguin UK tried recently was the idea of a <a href="http://thepenguinblog.typepad.com/the_penguin_blog/2007/02/a_million_pengu.html">"Wiki" novel</a>-- that is, a novel created by user content, that could be edited by anyone at any time during its creation. "A Million Penguins" sounds a lot like something you've touched on here, but I don't know if it's enough, or successful, or possible to get anything viable from it -- outside of the concept of attempting it. <br />
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When I'm writing -- offering my perspective -- My Voice beams it out, distinct and unique, mine entirely, first. I don't want it manipulated by other users before or during that process. That is what I struggle with while I write anything -- to not be molded by external forces or wishes that are false, especially my own. There's plenty of time for that to happen after the fact -- with criticism, comments, opinions, and reviews. I also think it's the writer'…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:67322007-03-16T18:24:19.890ZToni McGee Causeyhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/ecouteuse
I also think it's the writer's job to make sure that the next choices in the story are surprising, while still making sense. Linear does not have to equal predictable, and if the writer's done a good job, the reader will forget the fact that they're at the mercy of someone else "controlling" the story and will simply be "in" the story, living it and the surprises as each chapter unfolds.<br />
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That said, I just did a non-linear short story for the Killer Year Anthology... think Pulp Fiction…
I also think it's the writer's job to make sure that the next choices in the story are surprising, while still making sense. Linear does not have to equal predictable, and if the writer's done a good job, the reader will forget the fact that they're at the mercy of someone else "controlling" the story and will simply be "in" the story, living it and the surprises as each chapter unfolds. <br />
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That said, I just did a non-linear short story for the Killer Year Anthology... think Pulp Fiction struture meets a riff on O'Henry's Ransom of Red Chief. It was a lot of fun to break up the linear plot and that enabled me to do something I really ended up liking... but I think the non-linear nature of what I did would be too overwhelming for a novel length piece. I guess the closest one could…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:67142007-03-16T18:15:48.483ZSteve Allanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/SteveAllan
I guess the closest one could come to allowing the reader to do a lot of the mental work (just not controlling the story) is using an unreliable narrator, because the reader must create their own understanding of the novel and characters through the writer's hints, reading between the lines. However, the plot is given to them in a mostly linear fashion. The best example I can give is <i>The Remains of the Day</i> in which the saddest parts are those that the narrator fails to mention, or even…
I guess the closest one could come to allowing the reader to do a lot of the mental work (just not controlling the story) is using an unreliable narrator, because the reader must create their own understanding of the novel and characters through the writer's hints, reading between the lines. However, the plot is given to them in a mostly linear fashion. The best example I can give is <i>The Remains of the Day</i> in which the saddest parts are those that the narrator fails to mention, or even accept, what is plainly going on. <br />
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However, accomplishing something like you're thinking would have to be done in an interactive medium, which books are not. You could use a webpage or even an electronic book, and have links to different parts of the story, but I don't think you could do this with anything that was plot driven. I agree completely.
I also w…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:66792007-03-16T17:39:39.986ZKeith Snyderhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/noteon
I agree completely.<br />
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I also want to see games that are as cool, quick-thinking, and focused on always being unexpected and entertaining as my brilliant teenaged Dungeon Master was. Until a game can improvise a thousandth as well as a quickwitted 17-year-old, games will continue to be stupid.
I agree completely.<br />
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I also want to see games that are as cool, quick-thinking, and focused on always being unexpected and entertaining as my brilliant teenaged Dungeon Master was. Until a game can improvise a thousandth as well as a quickwitted 17-year-old, games will continue to be stupid. I remember a few years back a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2007-03-16:537324:Comment:66402007-03-16T17:15:43.952ZRobert Gregory Brownehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/RobGregoryBrowne
I remember a few years back a director created what he thought would be the next big thing in movies -- an interactive story where they audience had Choose Your Adventure type choices. It bombed.<br />
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Love that quote from Gillette.<br />
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I think readers want to be taken on a ride and don't want to have to make choices other than, "should I continue reading?"<br />
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Our job is to make that ride an amazing one and, to my mind, giving them choices would simply water it down.
I remember a few years back a director created what he thought would be the next big thing in movies -- an interactive story where they audience had Choose Your Adventure type choices. It bombed.<br />
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Love that quote from Gillette.<br />
<br />
I think readers want to be taken on a ride and don't want to have to make choices other than, "should I continue reading?"<br />
<br />
Our job is to make that ride an amazing one and, to my mind, giving them choices would simply water it down.