Crime Fiction vs. Literary Fiction: a vanishing binary? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T08:22:03Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/crime-fiction-vs-literary?feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks for the recommendation…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-07:537324:Comment:2217832009-12-07T03:00:21.173Zdoug andersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/douganderson
Thanks for the recommendation of Elizabeth Strout.
Thanks for the recommendation of Elizabeth Strout. I read both "literary" and cr…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-07:537324:Comment:2217802009-12-07T02:25:06.558ZJulie Lomoehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/julielomoe
I read both "literary" and crime fiction, and I agree the boundaries are becoming increasingly blurred. Some crime and mystery writers are wonderful from a literary standpoint - I agree about John Harvey, for example - and others are more pedestrian.<br />
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Many of the "literary" books I read are chosen by my Unitarian Universalist book club. They tend to be by authors who've been published by The New Yorker or reviewed favorably either there or in the NY Times Book Review. For example, right now I'm…
I read both "literary" and crime fiction, and I agree the boundaries are becoming increasingly blurred. Some crime and mystery writers are wonderful from a literary standpoint - I agree about John Harvey, for example - and others are more pedestrian.<br />
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Many of the "literary" books I read are chosen by my Unitarian Universalist book club. They tend to be by authors who've been published by The New Yorker or reviewed favorably either there or in the NY Times Book Review. For example, right now I'm reading and enjoying <i>Olive Kitteridge</i> by Elizabeth Strout. To me, a major difference is that these books are character-driven rather than plot-driven. Most of the characters are seriously troubled, and there are usually no satisfying resolutions to their travails.<br />
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Last winter I was selected to take part in a short story workshop series at the NYS Writers Institute conducted by James Lasdun, whose recent collection, published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux, is titled <i>It's Beginning to Hurt.</i>. There again, characters afflicted by severe weltschmertz were overwhelmingly favored.<br />
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Whatever the genre, beautiful writing stands out and keeps me reading.<br />
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Julie Lomoe<br />
<a href="http://julielomoe.wordpress.com" target="_blank">Julie Lomoe's Musings Mysterioso</a> Hmm, I guess I disagree (thou…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-07:537324:Comment:2217652009-12-07T00:20:33.020ZEdward G. Talbothttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EdwardGTalbot
Hmm, I guess I disagree (though I could perhaps be convinced otherwise). I think "show don't tell" says a hell of a lot. It is high level as opposed to in the weeds, and obviously one can get more detailed, but it was the single most helpful thing to me when I first started. And quite frankly I don't agree that there are "many" instances where telling is better than showing. There are a few situations, and some crime/thriller novels have more of those situations than other genres, but it's…
Hmm, I guess I disagree (though I could perhaps be convinced otherwise). I think "show don't tell" says a hell of a lot. It is high level as opposed to in the weeds, and obviously one can get more detailed, but it was the single most helpful thing to me when I first started. And quite frankly I don't agree that there are "many" instances where telling is better than showing. There are a few situations, and some crime/thriller novels have more of those situations than other genres, but it's always good to look at every situation where you are "telling" and see if it can be changed to more "showing".<br />
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as for POV, I guess I must be reading different discussions than you. I never have read an examination of POV that spent any kind of time on first person versus third. As you say, that really has very little to do with POV.<br />
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I guess I should note that the vast majority of \writing craft stuff I read is on blogs, and I think that tends to be very detailed and based on personal experiences from writers who have some writing under their belt. That doesn't mean I agree with every suggestion, but the context of much of it tends to make it more valuable. Excellent point, Doug. A clim…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-07:537324:Comment:2217642009-12-07T00:09:49.022ZEdward G. Talbothttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/EdwardGTalbot
Excellent point, Doug. A climactic scene needs to be the culmination of everything that's happened to that point, not simply the end of a forty page finale (like an action movie). It doesn't even have to be surprising, so much as it has to be "right".
Excellent point, Doug. A climactic scene needs to be the culmination of everything that's happened to that point, not simply the end of a forty page finale (like an action movie). It doesn't even have to be surprising, so much as it has to be "right". Well, The Road isn't a straig…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217332009-12-06T19:29:47.950ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
Well, <i>The Road</i> isn't a straight morality play because evil has clearly triumphed: it's a post-apocalyptic world straight out of Revelation. I think McCarthy brings on the Biblical references hot and heavy, but it certainly isn't the standard feel-good Christianity of C.S. Lewis: it's of a much darker and more interesting variety. I think "the fire" <i>is</i> humanity; you're not fully human unless you have some kind of minimal moral code, at least according to McCarthy.
Well, <i>The Road</i> isn't a straight morality play because evil has clearly triumphed: it's a post-apocalyptic world straight out of Revelation. I think McCarthy brings on the Biblical references hot and heavy, but it certainly isn't the standard feel-good Christianity of C.S. Lewis: it's of a much darker and more interesting variety. I think "the fire" <i>is</i> humanity; you're not fully human unless you have some kind of minimal moral code, at least according to McCarthy. I think in the best cases the…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217312009-12-06T19:00:49.828Zdoug andersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/douganderson
I think in the best cases the characters discover what is just or unjust and it often a surprise. Morality plays don't interest me except when they're done by somebody like Cormac McCarthy. In two of his more recent novels, No Country for Old Men and The Road, the situations are extreme enough that the characters and reader long for something that seems to have been missing for a long time. The necessity of it is made apparent by the almost total lack of it in nearly everybody in the books but…
I think in the best cases the characters discover what is just or unjust and it often a surprise. Morality plays don't interest me except when they're done by somebody like Cormac McCarthy. In two of his more recent novels, No Country for Old Men and The Road, the situations are extreme enough that the characters and reader long for something that seems to have been missing for a long time. The necessity of it is made apparent by the almost total lack of it in nearly everybody in the books but the central characters. In The Road, it's called "carrying the fire." He doesn't say what the fire is, but we know it is some kind of sine qua non. To have it is to be human.<br />
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C.S. Lewis would have brought in Christianity here, but not McCarthy. We have to figure out what "the fire" is.<br />
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The condition of the world at present makes me long for it. I think the key is to stay aw…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217302009-12-06T18:58:30.169ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
I think the key is to stay away from the save the woman/child ending unless you can turn it inside out somehow.<br />
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I think surprise is good, but there's a question of setting up the reader, creating suspense, etc. Hitchcock talked about the difference betwee shock and suspense this way: in a shock movie, a young, unsuspecting woman climbs a flight of stairs and, at the top, a knife-wielding maniac jumps out and attacks her! In suspense, a young, unsuspecting woman climbs a flight of stairs and…
I think the key is to stay away from the save the woman/child ending unless you can turn it inside out somehow.<br />
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I think surprise is good, but there's a question of setting up the reader, creating suspense, etc. Hitchcock talked about the difference betwee shock and suspense this way: in a shock movie, a young, unsuspecting woman climbs a flight of stairs and, at the top, a knife-wielding maniac jumps out and attacks her! In suspense, a young, unsuspecting woman climbs a flight of stairs and the audience knows a knife-wielding maniac is waiting for her. It all depends what you're going for, I guess. Usually the subtext is that l…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217292009-12-06T18:53:01.043ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
Usually the subtext is that legal justice is flawed (too harsh or too lenient) and that TRUE justice can and should be meted out by the protagonist. That's another pretty standard genre convention, although certainly better than the straight-up morality plays that a lot of writers seem content to produce.
Usually the subtext is that legal justice is flawed (too harsh or too lenient) and that TRUE justice can and should be meted out by the protagonist. That's another pretty standard genre convention, although certainly better than the straight-up morality plays that a lot of writers seem content to produce. I would add that the best cri…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217282009-12-06T18:41:39.370ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
I would add that the best crime fiction often doesn't deliver justice, really--or does so imperfectly, or even not at all. Moral complication isn't solely the province of lit-fic--but a lot of crime writers evidently think it is.
I would add that the best crime fiction often doesn't deliver justice, really--or does so imperfectly, or even not at all. Moral complication isn't solely the province of lit-fic--but a lot of crime writers evidently think it is. I find that "show don't tell"…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-12-06:537324:Comment:2217222009-12-06T18:22:11.396Zdoug andersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/douganderson
I find that "show don't tell" is good for beginning writers who have problems with specificity, but it is, as you say, shallow when taken as a precept.<br />
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Speaking of craft -- and I'm glad you shifted the discussion to it -- I'm concerned about climaxes. I've been reading a LOT of crime fiction and I find myself often speed-reading or even skipping over material that leads up to a climactic moment. This happens particularly in save the woman and save the child endings. I just finished a Bill…
I find that "show don't tell" is good for beginning writers who have problems with specificity, but it is, as you say, shallow when taken as a precept.<br />
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Speaking of craft -- and I'm glad you shifted the discussion to it -- I'm concerned about climaxes. I've been reading a LOT of crime fiction and I find myself often speed-reading or even skipping over material that leads up to a climactic moment. This happens particularly in save the woman and save the child endings. I just finished a Bill Pronzini novel where I did this, and I respect this writer immensely.<br />
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In the novel I'm working out there is a big, cinematic climax with lots of violence that involves rescue. What I'm aiming for is something so surprising that the usual tension building devices are unnecessary.