Does Art Imitate Life in Crime Fiction? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T01:09:24Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/does-art-imitate-life-in-crime?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A239547&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWe have no disagreement here.…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2396292010-06-26T18:08:31.884ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>We have no disagreement here.</b><br />
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Didn't think we did, actually! :)<br />
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Unfortunately, it's hardly, if ever, entertaining enough for fiction.<br />
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Maybe someone needs to break new ground? I'm sure there is potential there for a skilled writer to take on. In fact it may already have been done...I'm searching my memory. Minette Walters, in one of her mysteries? Something rings a bell. The problem of the mentally ill homeless is so big in this country....surely it would be fertile material for…
<b>We have no disagreement here.</b><br />
<br />
Didn't think we did, actually! :)<br />
<b><br />
Unfortunately, it's hardly, if ever, entertaining enough for fiction.<br />
</b><br />
Maybe someone needs to break new ground? I'm sure there is potential there for a skilled writer to take on. In fact it may already have been done...I'm searching my memory. Minette Walters, in one of her mysteries? Something rings a bell. The problem of the mentally ill homeless is so big in this country....surely it would be fertile material for a novel, and a "social expose" as well. Well this has been an interes…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2396232010-06-26T18:00:27.377ZDTK Molisehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DTKMolise
Well this has been an interesting discussion, even if it did at times move towards a debate on the death penalty. It is interesting, but not surprising, that at least two of the crime fiction writers have been proponents of the death penalty whereas the reader is against it. Steep yourself in crime and lose any belief in the idea of redemption?<br />
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On to the actual questions of whether real-life events should inform crime fiction I will use the words of David Peace "To me there's just so much that…
Well this has been an interesting discussion, even if it did at times move towards a debate on the death penalty. It is interesting, but not surprising, that at least two of the crime fiction writers have been proponents of the death penalty whereas the reader is against it. Steep yourself in crime and lose any belief in the idea of redemption?<br />
<br />
On to the actual questions of whether real-life events should inform crime fiction I will use the words of David Peace "To me there's just so much that happens in real life that we don't understand and we can't even fathom. I don't really see the point of making up crimes".<br />
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I think the real question is should you focus on specific recent crimes or perhaps on those where the protagonists are long gone so as not to dig up the recent past. But then why should a writer censor their work like that. Peace has written books around the 'Yorkshire Ripper' mass murderer, the UK miners strike, and recently post-1945 murders in Japan and as a result has come up with some of the most interesting British crime fiction of the last decade.<br />
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James Ellroy is perhaps the true master of taking real life criminal events and using that as the canvas on which to develop his stories. As a huge fan of his work, and a pretty big critic of generic crime fiction, I think that my vote would go down on the side of Ellroy and Peace. Maybe, it's the Bible-belt ph…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2395862010-06-26T15:01:38.191ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Maybe, it's the Bible-belt philosophy,</b><br />
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Except it's usually the folks from the Bible Belt who are the most conservative when it comes to dealing with criminals. An eye for an eye, they'd say. This is much more a liberal philosophy, don't you think? I'm a liberal in many things, most things---live and let live is my personal philosophy---but for those who DON"T let others live, punishment is in order. But the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent , prisons are overcrowded, and…
<b>Maybe, it's the Bible-belt philosophy,</b><br />
<br />
Except it's usually the folks from the Bible Belt who are the most conservative when it comes to dealing with criminals. An eye for an eye, they'd say. This is much more a liberal philosophy, don't you think? I'm a liberal in many things, most things---live and let live is my personal philosophy---but for those who DON"T let others live, punishment is in order. But the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent , prisons are overcrowded, and criminals often don't mind being in prison if they get enough perks. In other words it's not really punishment for some of them!<br />
Alternate hard labor with some kind of mandatory education/rehab? And keep the parole system tight. It was a weak spot in the parole system that allowed Lovette and Atwater to be out roaming around---their parole officer failed in her (?) duties<br />
Result: two senseless deaths.<br />
The best we can do now is learn SOMETHING from that!<br />
As far as people being really good at bottom---I wish I had the optimism of Anne Frank, a role I played in both high school and college plays, the last words of the play being: "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." Poor Anne. When I was 16, I could deliver those lines with conviction. Now? Not likely! I don't believe in helping pr…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2395812010-06-26T14:14:13.605ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
I don't believe in helping predators.<br />
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Sometimes I think this society believes everything must be forgiven, no matter how heinous. Maybe, it's the Bible-belt philosophy, or the ingrained romanticism that believes all people are good at the bottom, or it's that steady diet of soap operas where everybody cheats and kills and returns the next season a new person.
I don't believe in helping predators.<br />
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Sometimes I think this society believes everything must be forgiven, no matter how heinous. Maybe, it's the Bible-belt philosophy, or the ingrained romanticism that believes all people are good at the bottom, or it's that steady diet of soap operas where everybody cheats and kills and returns the next season a new person. It's that old panacea. A coup…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2395482010-06-26T01:08:43.750ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
It's that old panacea. A couple years ago, a neighbor whose husband developed Alzheimers' ended up having to move out of the house they'd live in for many years---it was foreclosed. She was a Baptist , dressed up and went to church every Sunday and in between I think, and what's more (I was told) an inveterate shopper---but she didn't pay her house bills. Her husband had always done that, so she just let it slide once he could no longer cope with it. A relative of hers told me that her solution…
It's that old panacea. A couple years ago, a neighbor whose husband developed Alzheimers' ended up having to move out of the house they'd live in for many years---it was foreclosed. She was a Baptist , dressed up and went to church every Sunday and in between I think, and what's more (I was told) an inveterate shopper---but she didn't pay her house bills. Her husband had always done that, so she just let it slide once he could no longer cope with it. A relative of hers told me that her solution to any difficulty was to pray. She really believed that would make it all right. Perhaps she thought it did. She and her ailing husband moved in with family. Then one day there was a Silver Alert---the husband had wandered off and disappeared. Some time later his decomposed body was found in a wooded area not far from their new home. Sad. I'm probably a bit off topic here---but there you have another story of human nature. They were nice people, too. Seems we're always wanting to…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-26:537324:Comment:2395472010-06-26T01:01:21.148ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Seems we're always wanting to understand and help predators, especially.</b><br />
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But we DO need to understand them, if we are to get a handle on them, stop them, help them---anything "pro-active." It surely isn't an easy task, but here in Durham there ARE programs to work with such kids---keep them OUT of gangs, teach them to do something meaningful with their lives. Not after the fact--because it's too late for the likes of Atwater and Lovette to get THAT kind of help. Probably. They likely…
<b>Seems we're always wanting to understand and help predators, especially.</b><br />
<br />
But we DO need to understand them, if we are to get a handle on them, stop them, help them---anything "pro-active." It surely isn't an easy task, but here in Durham there ARE programs to work with such kids---keep them OUT of gangs, teach them to do something meaningful with their lives. Not after the fact--because it's too late for the likes of Atwater and Lovette to get THAT kind of help. Probably. They likely don't even know HOW to feel remorse. Maybe they feel sorry for themselves, but that's not the same thing.<br />
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I'm NOT saying we need to coddle them or appease them. No,no no. Boys who commit these kinds of crimes DO need to feel the brunt of society's anger. They need to suffer some real consequences--and I don't mean just a cushy prison cell with a TV and a workout room for life, or until they get parole. (I don't think Atwater will). Hard labor would be good. These guys have forgotten what it means to actually hold down a job.<br />
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Sometimes, it's those too-loving mothers--- or grandmothers trying to raise these "fatherless" kids who coddle and spoil them, treat them like man-children, but throw up their hands and pray when the baby starts to get out of control.<br />
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But understanding is different. Are they sick because of how they are raised? A genetic defect? Mentally ill? Sociopathic? We can only save other Eve Carsons amd Abhijit Mohatos if we try to see how and what led to this. It has been shown that capital punishment does NOT deter crime.<br />
But young men like these should NOT be on the streets. No way. However, if they just ROT in prison, that doesn't do society any good either. It's more than fascination.<br />
How are cures for any disease found? By persistent research and experimentation. Study it. Who knows if we'll make any progress? But if we ignore it, we certainly won't.<br />
Scientists study black holes. But the criminal mind, the disordered mind, is kind of a black hole too. Like that quote, Jontag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-25:537324:Comment:2395222010-06-25T20:24:32.364ZJ W Nelsonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JWNelson
Like that quote, Jon
Like that quote, Jon Beware of church-goers partic…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-25:537324:Comment:2395022010-06-25T17:39:29.420ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Beware of church-goers particularly! :)
Beware of church-goers particularly! :) Especially if you're writing…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-25:537324:Comment:2394932010-06-25T17:11:30.236ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Especially if you're writing something contemporary, it's a huge risk to base your fiction that closely on real events and real people.</b><br />
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But of course there are all sorts of past events--- crime stories that have been forgotten about, part of the "annals," become anonymous with time. I was sort of thinking along those lines. Naturally, you can't write about anything TOO high profile---unless you make it a documentary. And I expect most crime fiction writers read books on the psychology…
<b>Especially if you're writing something contemporary, it's a huge risk to base your fiction that closely on real events and real people.</b><br />
<br />
But of course there are all sorts of past events--- crime stories that have been forgotten about, part of the "annals," become anonymous with time. I was sort of thinking along those lines. Naturally, you can't write about anything TOO high profile---unless you make it a documentary. And I expect most crime fiction writers read books on the psychology of killers. THAT"S interesting.<br />
I have read than ONE IN FOUR people is a sociopath. Not necessarily someone who kills, but someone who lacks a moral compass---for whatever reason. Some are integrated into society very well--upbringing & religion may play a role in this. Others surface because they do commit some kind of crime---or just break the law. Ann Miller, who poisoned her husband, was very likely a sociopath. Everything she seemed to be, she was not. "Deadly Dose" is a real page-turner--and all of it true! Profile of a psychopath. No one else was real to her. Of course you could use her TYPE in a fictional mystery, even if you couldn't use the actual scenario. I think when you get too clos…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-06-25:537324:Comment:2394892010-06-25T16:57:41.412ZPepper Smithhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Reefrunner
I think when you get too close to real-life events, you run the risk that someone is going to assume you were writing about them and sue you. Even if you weren't doing so, if the judge and jury thinks there's enough evidence that you did, you could end up in serious trouble. Especially if you're writing something contemporary, it's a huge risk to base your fiction that closely on real events and real people.<br />
<br />
That said, sometimes real events and real people may give you ideas that spin off into…
I think when you get too close to real-life events, you run the risk that someone is going to assume you were writing about them and sue you. Even if you weren't doing so, if the judge and jury thinks there's enough evidence that you did, you could end up in serious trouble. Especially if you're writing something contemporary, it's a huge risk to base your fiction that closely on real events and real people.<br />
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That said, sometimes real events and real people may give you ideas that spin off into entirely different scenarios, ones that make great stories and won't get you sued in the process. Odd things will spark new stories. You just never know sometimes where your next idea will come from.