Does the writing actually matter? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T15:58:40Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/does-the-writing-actually-matter?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A362046&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks for sharing, Neil.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-07:537324:Comment:3620522012-12-07T03:55:32.745ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>Thanks for sharing, Neil.</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing, Neil.</p> Whoops! I added my last post…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-06:537324:Comment:3620472012-12-06T15:07:58.994ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
<p>Whoops! I added my last post before seeing this, Neil. But what you've said here seems to be very much consistent with the 2007 Murderati interview. Thanks again for your insights!</p>
<p>Whoops! I added my last post before seeing this, Neil. But what you've said here seems to be very much consistent with the 2007 Murderati interview. Thanks again for your insights!</p> Well I'd love for Neil to tel…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-06:537324:Comment:3618212012-12-06T14:53:48.058ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
<p><em>Well I'd love for Neil to tell us what criteria he does in fact use to decide which books to pursue. Or what criteria the sales and marketing people use.</em></p>
<p>Neil addresses that question first-thing in this 2007 interview on the Murderati blog, and I doubt his position has changed much since then:…</p>
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<p><em>Well I'd love for Neil to tell us what criteria he does in fact use to decide which books to pursue. Or what criteria the sales and marketing people use.</em></p>
<p>Neil addresses that question first-thing in this 2007 interview on the Murderati blog, and I doubt his position has changed much since then:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.murderati.com/blog/2007/3/2/neil-nyren-no-longer-a-man-of-mystery.html" target="_blank">http://www.murderati.com/blog/2007/3/2/neil-nyren-no-longer-a-man-of-mystery.html</a></p>
<p>I would only add what I've said here many times before, that taste is altogether subjective. Neil might get excited about a manuscript that twenty other editors have rejected, and Neil might pass on one that becomes the next <em>Da Vinci Code</em>. That's why agents submit to a lot of different houses and imprints, to give a book the best possible odds of finding a home. If there were some sort of surefire formula for commercial success, we could just pick the publisher we want and submit the manuscript and call it a day.</p>
<p></p> I don't consult sales and mar…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-06:537324:Comment:3620462012-12-06T14:40:59.597ZNeil Nyrenhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/NeilNyren
<p>I don't consult sales and marketing people before I buy a novel -- it's an editorial decision, and there's usually at most only a couple of other people involved.</p>
<p><br></br>My criteria varies, depending on whether it's fiction or nonfiction, genre or non-genre, but since this is Crimespace, I'll stick to crime fiction, and in particular first fiction -- a brand-new writer: no history, just the book sitting in front of me.</p>
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<p>First, there are the givens -- when a manuscript…</p>
<p>I don't consult sales and marketing people before I buy a novel -- it's an editorial decision, and there's usually at most only a couple of other people involved.</p>
<p><br/>My criteria varies, depending on whether it's fiction or nonfiction, genre or non-genre, but since this is Crimespace, I'll stick to crime fiction, and in particular first fiction -- a brand-new writer: no history, just the book sitting in front of me.</p>
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<p>First, there are the givens -- when a manuscript crosses my desk, I'm looking for good plot, good characters, and, in answer to the title of this discussion, yes, good writing. After that, there are three things:</p>
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<p>I want a story that I haven't read a million times before (by this point in my career, I mean that almost literally). But if it is something that's familiar, it needs to be done so damn well that it's irresistible.</p>
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<p>I want to feel that the author is in control of his book from the very first page -- if the reader senses that he's in good hands, he'll sit back and let the author take him wherever the author wants. If it feels wobbly, you've lost him. And he's got to sustain it all the way through -- there are plenty of times that I've gotten to a certain point in the book and I start a mental chant: "Don't screw it up, don't screw it up, don't screw it up." The chant doesn't always work, though.</p>
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<p>And the third thing is kind of nebulous (and thus frustrating for writers to hear, I know), and I suspect the substance of it is different for every individual editor -- I want...something extra. Something that separates it from the crowd. For me in particular, it's often a certain kind of intensity that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, my pulse race faster. That's when I start getting really serious about a book.</p>
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<p>These aren't hard and fast rules -- as with pretty much everything else about publishing, there are always exceptions. And I'm not speaking for all the other editors out there -- we all have different tastes, different interests, different ways of approaching a book. Another reason you can't produce a magic formula!</p> Well I'd love for Neil to tel…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-06:537324:Comment:3617342012-12-06T00:26:38.972ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>Well I'd love for Neil to tell us what criteria he does in fact use to decide which books to pursue. Or what criteria the sales and marketing people use.</p>
<p>Well I'd love for Neil to tell us what criteria he does in fact use to decide which books to pursue. Or what criteria the sales and marketing people use.</p> Maverick heroes...
While I ag…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-05:537324:Comment:3619692012-12-05T22:27:39.297ZJude Hardinhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/festus
<p><em>Maverick heroes...</em></p>
<p>While I agree that many books share some or all of the attributes outlined by Mr. Hall, the list still doesn't constitute any sort of recipe for success. You can list all the chemicals that make up the human body, too, but when you mix everything together (Just add water!) you're not going to have anything that remotely resembles a person. You'll have a big mess, which is what you'll have if you try to follow any sort of formula for writing a…</p>
<p><em>Maverick heroes...</em></p>
<p>While I agree that many books share some or all of the attributes outlined by Mr. Hall, the list still doesn't constitute any sort of recipe for success. You can list all the chemicals that make up the human body, too, but when you mix everything together (Just add water!) you're not going to have anything that remotely resembles a person. You'll have a big mess, which is what you'll have if you try to follow any sort of formula for writing a novel.</p>
<p>Neil Nyren said it best: "Bestsellers come in all shapes and sizes -- their only common denominator is that a lot of people wanted to buy them."</p> And that list is just food fo…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-05:537324:Comment:3617332012-12-05T22:03:31.689ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>And that list is just food for thought on how one might maximize one's chances of making the bestseller lists. It's possible, of course, to become a best seller without adhering to a single one of these items.</p>
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<p>I don't believe there is a "cookie cutter" formula for best sellerdom, but on the other hand the novel is a formula itself, and I think Aristotle described that formula rather well a long time ago when he was discussing Greek tragedy. You're not going to sell a book at…</p>
<p>And that list is just food for thought on how one might maximize one's chances of making the bestseller lists. It's possible, of course, to become a best seller without adhering to a single one of these items.</p>
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<p>I don't believe there is a "cookie cutter" formula for best sellerdom, but on the other hand the novel is a formula itself, and I think Aristotle described that formula rather well a long time ago when he was discussing Greek tragedy. You're not going to sell a book at all, most likely, without (in order) exposition, development and denouement.</p> In no particular order:
Maver…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-05:537324:Comment:3619682012-12-05T21:46:42.910ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
<p>In no particular order:</p>
<p>Maverick heroes (from Hall's study of best sellers on steroids)</p>
<p>A hIgh concept (Hall)</p>
<p>High stakes (Hall)</p>
<p>Frequent suspense (Hall)</p>
<p>Hot sex (Hall)</p>
<p>An insider look at worlds most readers aren't privy to (Hall)</p>
<p>Hot button issues (Hall)</p>
<p>Fractured families (Hall)</p>
<p>Lots of death (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Short paragraphs (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Short sentences (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Simple vocabulary (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Inhuman villains…</p>
<p>In no particular order:</p>
<p>Maverick heroes (from Hall's study of best sellers on steroids)</p>
<p>A hIgh concept (Hall)</p>
<p>High stakes (Hall)</p>
<p>Frequent suspense (Hall)</p>
<p>Hot sex (Hall)</p>
<p>An insider look at worlds most readers aren't privy to (Hall)</p>
<p>Hot button issues (Hall)</p>
<p>Fractured families (Hall)</p>
<p>Lots of death (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Short paragraphs (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Short sentences (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Simple vocabulary (Ingrid)</p>
<p>Inhuman villains (Ingrid)</p>
<p></p> Trad. publishing is in an uph…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-05:537324:Comment:3617312012-12-05T19:42:56.570ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
<p>Trad. publishing is in an upheaval. They are no longer what they were, and God only knows where they are headed.</p>
<p>Trad. publishing is in an upheaval. They are no longer what they were, and God only knows where they are headed.</p> You the man.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2012-12-05:537324:Comment:3619672012-12-05T19:00:51.718ZJack Getzehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JGetze
<p>You the man.</p>
<p>You the man.</p>