Giving It Away - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T22:56:59Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/giving-it-away?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A241691&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis is well said, Tim. Still…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-17:537324:Comment:2420982010-07-17T03:34:18.337ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
This is well said, Tim. Still it's worth bearing in mind the old Chinese curse about living in interesting times. This seems very much a wait and see moment to me.
This is well said, Tim. Still it's worth bearing in mind the old Chinese curse about living in interesting times. This seems very much a wait and see moment to me. In my experience, Amazon is h…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-17:537324:Comment:2420972010-07-17T03:32:52.387ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
In my experience, Amazon is highly selective in the way it "lets the community rule." Ultimately they're responsible for what happens on their site; if they didn't want the boycott groups in play, they'd put a stop to it. As I say, when they suddenly dropped every author on a Macmillan imprint, were they letting the community rule? Or were they playing retail hardball, and trying to bring a supplier into line? But I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here--clearly you've got your…
In my experience, Amazon is highly selective in the way it "lets the community rule." Ultimately they're responsible for what happens on their site; if they didn't want the boycott groups in play, they'd put a stop to it. As I say, when they suddenly dropped every author on a Macmillan imprint, were they letting the community rule? Or were they playing retail hardball, and trying to bring a supplier into line? But I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here--clearly you've got your perception and I've got mine. Agree with all of this. Sugge…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-17:537324:Comment:2420952010-07-17T01:47:59.736ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
Agree with all of this. Suggest also that Amazon is going to become a powerful publisher too. Witness its "Amazon Encore" program already.
Agree with all of this. Suggest also that Amazon is going to become a powerful publisher too. Witness its "Amazon Encore" program already. John, I missed this...
Amazo…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-17:537324:Comment:2420882010-07-17T00:01:37.953ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
John, I missed this...<br />
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Amazon has odd delivery contracts with Whispernet for non-US users. The price is higher when the customer is "international" and it could be there is an issue because the publisher is Canadian.<br />
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The only other time I've seen Amazon do this is when a publisher had a different list price on another site. (Although they don't usually care if the price is HIGHER. They get snarky if it's lower.)
John, I missed this...<br />
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Amazon has odd delivery contracts with Whispernet for non-US users. The price is higher when the customer is "international" and it could be there is an issue because the publisher is Canadian.<br />
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The only other time I've seen Amazon do this is when a publisher had a different list price on another site. (Although they don't usually care if the price is HIGHER. They get snarky if it's lower.) Great discussion.
Nobody car…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420622010-07-16T21:34:31.244ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Great discussion.<br />
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Nobody cares what I think, not even me, actually, but here's what I think.<br />
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1. Authors have always been the least powerful people in modern publishing. They've never been able to control how, or how well, they're distributed unless they're in the zillion-dollar group.<br />
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2. E-books are here and we, as authors, have to live with them. (Sales went up 207% last year.) Amazon is on its way to being the most powerful retailer of any kind in history, and we're going to have to live…
Great discussion.<br />
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Nobody cares what I think, not even me, actually, but here's what I think.<br />
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1. Authors have always been the least powerful people in modern publishing. They've never been able to control how, or how well, they're distributed unless they're in the zillion-dollar group.<br />
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2. E-books are here and we, as authors, have to live with them. (Sales went up 207% last year.) Amazon is on its way to being the most powerful retailer of any kind in history, and we're going to have to live with that, too.<br />
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3. Prices of $21.95-$25.95 for new books are ridiculous. (My own new one is $24.99) I understand all the reasons why those prices exist, having been published now by majors for 20 years, but they're outrageous. They're also the main reason people buy used books. If you love books and you read 4-5 new ones a month and you have very little money, there's no way you're going to shell out $100 per month for books.<br />
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4. E-books are cheap to manufacture, involve no shipping, and essentially eliminate the problem of returns, which is one reason book prices are so high. As long as DRM is effective and prices are reasonable, they'll also greatly reduce used-book sales. Why buy a used paper copy in great condition when you can get a e-book for less? (Assuming you read e-books.)<br />
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5. E-books give writers who have regained control over their backlist a terrific opportunity to make money on those titles. OR, the e-book marketplace allows them to take new manuscripts direct to readers, making up to 70% of the retail price of each copy sold. (I'm putting my new ones up now and thinking about going direct with a book that has ALMOST been bought by six publishers.)<br />
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6. That means, going back to point one, that e-books offer writers a chance to be in the driver's seat for a change. Sure, you'll have to learn how to promote your product, etc., but then I have to do that now, don't I?<br />
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In all, I think this is a very interesting time to be a writer and a GREAT time to be a customer. And I think, in the long run, the two go together. You do know that it isn't Ama…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420612010-07-16T21:25:57.114ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
You do know that it isn't Amazon that creates tags, don't you? That's a consumer thing, like the reviews. Yeah, those boycott groups are very active, and no Amazon does not encourage them any more than they encourage the rival groups that run around down-rating the boycotters. Both groups have been lobbying for Amazon to shut down the other and Amazon won't - because their business model is to let the community rule.<br />
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Yes, price point is important to Amazon... because Amazon knows their…
You do know that it isn't Amazon that creates tags, don't you? That's a consumer thing, like the reviews. Yeah, those boycott groups are very active, and no Amazon does not encourage them any more than they encourage the rival groups that run around down-rating the boycotters. Both groups have been lobbying for Amazon to shut down the other and Amazon won't - because their business model is to let the community rule.<br />
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Yes, price point is important to Amazon... because Amazon knows their audience. They've been collecting info for decades now. They know exactly who their audience is and what they want. Like all retailers, they are focused on their customers.<br />
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I can understand why people in publishing are so paranoid about it, because the big distributors have held such a stranglehold for so long, and they've manipulated things so much. And yes, Amazon is a big company that does things for its own sake, just as Apple or Barnes and Noble does.... but honestly, this is coming from the consumer. It is in their interests and business model to follow the consumer's whims.<br />
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(As for whether there is an huge untapped audience for ebooks.... well, right now, they are an untapped audience for books, and they aren't that picky, but they are price sensitive. And ebooks are an opportunity to get them back in the fold.) Back in the nineties, a lot o…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420592010-07-16T21:17:03.141ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
Back in the nineties, a lot of careers just fell off the map. The authors remained active, though, in the used market. They had Amazon rankings. They had an active following. And their books got back in print.<br />
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As for the idea that book sales peak just after release... um, you know that's a new pattern, don't you? Brought about by the way big distributors have done their ordering for the past thirty years or so. Before that, there was an actual healthy midlist. Books, and authors, had a lot…
Back in the nineties, a lot of careers just fell off the map. The authors remained active, though, in the used market. They had Amazon rankings. They had an active following. And their books got back in print.<br />
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As for the idea that book sales peak just after release... um, you know that's a new pattern, don't you? Brought about by the way big distributors have done their ordering for the past thirty years or so. Before that, there was an actual healthy midlist. Books, and authors, had a lot more time to develop an audience.<br />
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Yeah, some books still get a bounce from the promotional efforts of traditional publishing, but on ebooks, the pattern is different. You build slowly, and increase as you go. We were comparing numbers in an ebook author group, and it seems as though there is an early peak in the first six months, and then it settles down to more steady numbers after that. (Of course, this is after only about two years of observation, but it matches what I remember of the sixties and seventies)<br />
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The other thing to factor in is the arc of the career. There is only so much space in a bookstore, so it's out with the old and in with the new. Only a select few midlist authors right now have more than a book or two available on the shelves - and though Amazon can offer more, those books go out of print anyway, so once again only used books are available on Amazon. EXCEPT...<br />
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With ebooks, that audience again can be tapped. And with each new book, your old ones sell. Let me say off the bat that I…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420352010-07-16T17:42:15.381ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Let me say off the bat that I support Amazon and its Kindle. But I am very sensitive to the million ways that have been invented for people to get books for free or for very little. That includes used book sales and libraries that don't return anything to authors. As long as authors are expected to turn out books for starvation wages and are subject to the greed -- umm business acumen -- of publishers and book stores, I will scramble for anything that will give me a bit more income and…
Let me say off the bat that I support Amazon and its Kindle. But I am very sensitive to the million ways that have been invented for people to get books for free or for very little. That includes used book sales and libraries that don't return anything to authors. As long as authors are expected to turn out books for starvation wages and are subject to the greed -- umm business acumen -- of publishers and book stores, I will scramble for anything that will give me a bit more income and control.<br />
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As for the gratitude of readers who have read my books without paying me anything, I don't get the feeling that they try vry hard to pass the word so that others will buy. People want stuff for free, and they don't care about fairness in that respect.<br />
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And Jon is quite right about the initial sales after a book is released. They last a month. After that the stores return unsold copies and people read the books in the libraries. And the author doesn't eat. Amazon drives and promotes pr…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420262010-07-16T16:06:54.104ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
Amazon drives and promotes price sensitivity on ebooks, yes indeed--otherwise they wouldn't put those boycott group tags up on my freaking Kindle page. It's not like Amazon doesn't control their own site content--they obviously do, and the fact that they allow the boycott groups to tag products they sell must mean that they approve of the tactic. Their battle with Macmillan over pricing is another indicator that price point is a crucial concern to them--otherwise why drop all Macmillan authors…
Amazon drives and promotes price sensitivity on ebooks, yes indeed--otherwise they wouldn't put those boycott group tags up on my freaking Kindle page. It's not like Amazon doesn't control their own site content--they obviously do, and the fact that they allow the boycott groups to tag products they sell must mean that they approve of the tactic. Their battle with Macmillan over pricing is another indicator that price point is a crucial concern to them--otherwise why drop all Macmillan authors from the site--even their print books--essentially holding us hostage in order to get their way? Sure, ebooks should not cost what hardcovers cost. But I object to Amazon's tactics, and it's pretty clear to me that they're doing everything in their power to keep ebook prices at or below the $9.99 price point.<br />
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Whether there's a huge, untapped new audience for ebooks or not is still unclear to me--maybe so, or maybe it's a fad that will dry up in a few years. I hope you're right--it would be great if iBooks and the Kindle were able to pump some serious cash into the flagging publishing biz. But that's not a bad thing, J…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-07-16:537324:Comment:2420202010-07-16T15:39:01.482ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
But that's not a bad thing, Jon. I'm trying to tell you that. They are a huge, untapped, new audience.<br />
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I make 2 bucks off a 3 dollar book. And some authors are doing nicely at 35 cents a book for their one dollar specials - because they get so much volume. (I think the price is probably going to settle in at 3.99-4.99 or so which is a good price.) The paper market isn't going away, and neither is that audience. This is an additional audience.<br />
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Remember also that people aren't buying used books…
But that's not a bad thing, Jon. I'm trying to tell you that. They are a huge, untapped, new audience.<br />
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I make 2 bucks off a 3 dollar book. And some authors are doing nicely at 35 cents a book for their one dollar specials - because they get so much volume. (I think the price is probably going to settle in at 3.99-4.99 or so which is a good price.) The paper market isn't going away, and neither is that audience. This is an additional audience.<br />
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Remember also that people aren't buying used books for a penny from Amazon. The least you can pay is $4, because of the 3.99 handling charge. Which is per book.<br />
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Look, you said that Amazon is creating that price sensitivity, but that's just not true. That price sensitivity was always there - Amazon was smart enough to tap into it. The publishers and authors who are smart enough to do it will win out in the end.<br />
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Furthermore, Amazon is smart enough to discourage extreme discounting. While there are a lot of indies who have 99 cent books (including yours truly for this month) Amazon pays low royalties for that, which pushes all but the most amateur writers up to a minimum of 2.99. Even the most price sensitive customer notices that.<br />
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Since Amazon doesn't allow indies to offer freebies, most of us use the 99 cent price point as the equivalent of a giveaway.