Noir, Anyone? - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T18:44:23Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/noir-anyone?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A233458&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWell, Chandler was a terrible…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-02:537324:Comment:2341412010-05-02T21:07:02.767ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Well, Chandler was a terrible snob -- he went to school at Dulwich, in England, and he never let anybody forget it. He was also nowhere near as forthcoming with sex as Cain was; he married a much older (and unwell) woman, and their relationship seemed to be one of caretaker and patient as much as anything else. He loved her to distraction, but I don't think he was comfortable with sex, at least not on the page.
Well, Chandler was a terrible snob -- he went to school at Dulwich, in England, and he never let anybody forget it. He was also nowhere near as forthcoming with sex as Cain was; he married a much older (and unwell) woman, and their relationship seemed to be one of caretaker and patient as much as anything else. He loved her to distraction, but I don't think he was comfortable with sex, at least not on the page. Thanks again. I have not writ…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-02:537324:Comment:2341032010-05-02T08:55:05.994ZDTK Molisehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DTKMolise
Thanks again. I have not written about it before but have read and watched quite few books, articles and documentaries that enable me to appear insightful when discussing noir!
Thanks again. I have not written about it before but have read and watched quite few books, articles and documentaries that enable me to appear insightful when discussing noir! Oh, what the hell. Here's the…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-02:537324:Comment:2340982010-05-02T03:01:26.923ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Oh, what the hell. Here's the list Eric linked to. Boy there's some great sh -- um, stuff on it.<br />
<br />
1. The Maltese Falcon - (1941, John Huston) (Humphrey Bogart, Peter Lorre, Mary Astor)<br />
2. Double Indemnity - (1944, Billy Wilder) (Fred MacMurray, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward G. Robinson)<br />
3. The Big Sleep - (1946, Howard Hawks) (Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, John Ridgely)<br />
4. Sunset Boulevard - (1950, Billy Wilder) (Gloria Swanson, William Holden, Erich von Stroheim)<br />
5. The Third Man - (1949, Carol…
Oh, what the hell. Here's the list Eric linked to. Boy there's some great sh -- um, stuff on it.<br />
<br />
1. The Maltese Falcon - (1941, John Huston) (Humphrey Bogart, Peter Lorre, Mary Astor)<br />
2. Double Indemnity - (1944, Billy Wilder) (Fred MacMurray, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward G. Robinson)<br />
3. The Big Sleep - (1946, Howard Hawks) (Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, John Ridgely)<br />
4. Sunset Boulevard - (1950, Billy Wilder) (Gloria Swanson, William Holden, Erich von Stroheim)<br />
5. The Third Man - (1949, Carol Reed) (Orson Welles, Joseph Cotten, Trevor Howard, Alida Valli)<br />
6. M - (1931, Fritz Lang) (Peter Lorre, Ellen Widmann, Inge Landgut, Otto Wernicke)<br />
7. Notorious - (1946, Alfred Hitchcock) (Cary Grant, Ingrid Bergman, Claude Rains, Louis Calhern)<br />
8. Touch Of Evil - (1958, Orson Welles) (Charlton Heston, Janet Leigh, Orson Welles, Dennis Weaver)<br />
9. Criss Cross - (1949, Robert Siodmak) (Burt Lancaster, Yvonne De Carlo, Stephen McNally)<br />
10. Strangers On A Train - (1951, Alfred Hitchcock) (Farley Granger, Ruth Roman, Robert Walker)<br />
11. Out Of The Past - (1947, Jacques Tourneur) (Robert Mitchum, Kirk Douglas, Rhonda Fleming)<br />
12. The Big Combo - (1955, Joseph H. Lewis) (Cornel Wilde, Richard Conte, Brian Donlevy, Jean Wallace)<br />
13. The Night Of The Hunter - (1955, Charles Laughton) (Robert Mitchum, Shelley Winters, Lillian Gish)<br />
14. The Killing - (1956, Stanley Kubrick) (Sterling Hayden, Coleen Gray, Vince Edwards)<br />
15. Key Largo - (1948, John Huston) (Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, Edward G. Robinson)<br />
16. I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang - (1932, Mervyn LeRoy) (Paul Muni, Glenda Farrell, Preston Foster)<br />
17. Ace In The Hole - (1951, Billy Wilder) (Kirk Douglas, Jan Sterling, Robert Arthur, Richard Benedict)<br />
18. Laura - (1944, Otto Preminger) (Gene Tierney, Dana Andrews, Clifton Webb, Vincent Price)<br />
19. White Heat - (1949, Raoul Walsh) (James Cagney, Virginia Mayo, Edmond O'Brien, Steve Cochran)<br />
20. The Lost Weekend - (1945, Billy Wilder) (Ray Milland, Jane Wyman, Phillip Terry)<br />
21. Angels With Dirty Faces - (1938, Michael Curtiz) (James Cagney, Pat O'Brien, Humphrey Bogart)<br />
22. Rififi - (1955, Jules Dassin) (Jean Servais, Carl Möhner, Robert Manuel, Janine Darcey)<br />
23. Sweet Smell of Success - (1957, Alexander Mackendrick) (Burt Lancaster, Tony Curtis, Martin Milner)<br />
24. The Blue Dahlia - (1946, George Marshall) (Alan Ladd, Veronica Lake, William Bendix, Howard Da Silva)<br />
25. Night And The City - (1950, Jules Dassin) (Richard Widmark, Gene Tierney, Herbert Lom)<br />
26. The Set-Up - (1949, Robert Wise) (Robert Ryan, Audrey Totter, George Tobias, Alan Baxter)<br />
27. Scarface - (1932, Howard Hawks) (Paul Muni, Ann Dvorak, George Raft, Boris Karloff)<br />
28. Shadow Of A Doubt - (1943, Alfred Hitchcock) (Teresa Wright, Joseph Cotten, Macdonald Carey)<br />
29. The Big Heat - (1953, Fritz Lang) (Glenn Ford, Gloria Grahame, Lee Marvin)<br />
30. The Asphalt Jungle - (1950, John Huston) (Sterling Hayden, Marilyn Monroe, James Whitmore)<br />
31. Nightmare Alley - (1947, Edmund Goulding) (Tyrone Power, Joan Blondell, Coleen Gray)<br />
32. Body And Soul - (1947, Robert Rossen) (John Garfield, Lilli Palmer, William Conrad)<br />
33. In A Lonely Place - (1950, Nicholas Ray) (Humphrey Bogart, Gloria Grahame, Frank Lovejoy)<br />
34. The Lady from Shanghai - (1947, Orson Welles) (Orson Welles, Rita Hayworth, Everett Sloane)<br />
35. Ossessione - (1943, Luchino Visconti) (Clara Calamai, Massimo Girotti, Dhia Cristiani)<br />
36. The Woman in the Window - (1944, Fritz Lang) (Edward G. Robinson, Joan Bennett, Raymond Massey)<br />
37. Pickup On South Street - (1953, Samuel Fuller) (Richard Widmark, Jean Peters, Thelma Ritter)<br />
38. Scarlet Street - (1945, Fritz Lang) (Edward G. Robinson, Joan Bennett, Dan Duryea)<br />
39. Kiss Of Death - (1947, Henry Hathaway) (Victor Mature, Brian Donlevy, Coleen Gray, Richard Widmark)<br />
40. Gun Crazy (aka: Deadly Is The Female) - (1950, Joseph H. Lewis) (Peggy Cummins, John Dall)<br />
41. Mildred Pierce - (1945, Michael Curtiz) (Joan Crawford, Jack Carson, Eve Arden)<br />
42. Where The Sidewalk Ends - (1950, Otto Preminger) (Dana Andrews, Gene Tierney, Gary Merrill)<br />
43. The Naked City - (1948, Jules Dassin) (Barry Fitzgerald, Howard Duff, Dorothy Hart)<br />
44. Gilda - (1946, Charles Vidor) (Rita Hayworth, Glenn Ford, George Macready)<br />
45. Murder, My Sweet - (1944, Edward Dmytryk) (Dick Powell, Claire Trevor, Anne Shirley)<br />
46. Kiss Me Deadly - (1955, Robert Aldrich) (Ralph Meeker, Albert Dekker, Paul Stewart)<br />
47. Sudden Fear - (1952, ) (Joan Crawford, Jack Palance, Gloria Grahame, Mike Connors)<br />
48. This Gun For Hire - (1942, Frank Tuttle) (Veronica Lake, Robert Preston, Alan Ladd)<br />
49. Dark Passage - (1947, Delmer Daves) (Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, Agnes Moorehead)<br />
50. The Postman Always Rings Twice - (1946, Tay Garnett) (Lana Turner, John Garfield, Cecil Kellaway)<br />
51. Fury - (1936, Fritz Lang) (Spencer Tracy, Sylvia Sidney, Walter Abel, Bruce Cabot)<br />
52. Leave Her To Heaven - (1945, John M. Stahl) (Gene Tierney, Cornel Wilde, Vincent Price)<br />
53. D.O.A. - (1950, Rudolph Maté) (Edmond O'Brien, Pamela Britton, Beverly Garland)<br />
54. Kansas City Confidential - (1952, Phil Karlson) (John Payne, Coleen Gray, Preston Foster)<br />
55. Force Of Evil - (1948, Abraham Polonsky) (John Garfield, Thomas Gomez, Marie Windsor)<br />
56. Crossfire - (1947, Edward Dmytryk) (Robert Young, Robert Mitchum, Robert Ryan, Gloria Grahame)<br />
57. The Strange Love Of Martha Ivers - (1946, L. Milestone) (Barbara Stanwyck, Van Heflin, Kirk Douglas)<br />
58. House Of Strangers - (1949, Joseph L. Mankiewicz) (Edward G. Robinson, Susan Hayward)<br />
59. Scandal Sheet - (1952, Phil Karlson) (Broderick Crawford, Donna Reed, John Derek, Harry Morgan)<br />
60. The Wrong Man - (1956, Alfred Hitchcock) (Henry Fonda, Vera Miles, Anthony Quayle)<br />
61. Odds Against Tomorrow - (1959, Robert Wise) (Harry Belafonte, Robert Ryan, Shelley Winters)<br />
62. Raw Deal - (1948, Anthony Mann) (Dennis O'Keefe, Claire Trevor, Marsha Hunt, John Ireland)<br />
63. Act of Violence - (1948, Fred Zinnemann) (Van Heflin, Robert Ryan, Janet Leigh, Mary Astor)<br />
64. The Stranger - (1946, Orson Welles) (Edward G. Robinson, Loretta Young, Orson Welles)<br />
65. You Only Live Once - (1937, Fritz Lang) (Henry Fonda, Sylvia Sidney, Barton MacLane)<br />
66. Angel Face - (1952, Otto Preminger) (Robert Mitchum, Jean Simmons, Mona Freeman)<br />
67. Pitfall - (1948, André De Toth) (Dick Powell, Lizabeth Scott, Jane Wyatt, Raymond Burr)<br />
68. Detour - (1945, Edgar G. Ulmer) (Tom Neal, Ann Savage, Claudia Drake, Edmund MacDonald)<br />
69. On Dangerous Ground - (1952, Nicholas Ray) (Ida Lupino, Robert Ryan, Ward Bond)<br />
70. Panic In The Streets - (1950, Elia Kazan) (Richard Widmark, Paul Douglas, Barbara Bel Geddes)<br />
71. Possessed - (1947, Curtis Bernhardt) (Joan Crawford, Van Heflin, Raymond Massey)<br />
72. Human Desire - (1954, Fritz Lang) (Glenn Ford, Gloria Grahame, Broderick Crawford)<br />
73. The Street With No Name - (1948, William Keighley) (Mark Stevens, Richard Widmark, Lloyd Nolan)<br />
74. Fallen Angel - (1945, Otto Preminger) (Alice Faye, Dana Andrews, Linda Darnell, John Carradine)<br />
75. Phantom Lady - (1944, Robert Siodmak) (Franchot Tone, Ella Raines, Alan Curtis)<br />
76. Cry of the City - (1948, Robert Siodmak) (Victor Mature, Richard Conte, Shelley Winters)<br />
77. Dead Reckoning - (1947, John Cromwell) (Humphrey Bogart, Lizabeth Scott, Morris Carnovsky)<br />
78. T-Men - (1947, Anthony Mann) (Dennis O'Keefe, Mary Meade, Alfred Ryder, June Lockhart)<br />
79. Party Girl - (1958, Nicholas Ray) (Robert Taylor, Cyd Charisse, Lee J. Cobb, John Ireland)<br />
80. The File On Thelma Jordon - (1950, Robert Siodmak) (Barbara Stanwyck, Wendell Corey, Paul Kelly)<br />
81. The Brasher Doubloon - (1947, John Brahm) (George Montgomery, Nancy Guild, Conrad Janis)<br />
82. Clash by Night - (1952, Fritz Lang) (Barbara Stanwyck, Paul Douglas, Robert Ryan, Marilyn Monroe)<br />
83. Mystery Street - (1950, John Sturges) (Ricardo Montalban, Sally Forrest, Bruce Bennett)<br />
84. Niagara - (1953, Henry Hathaway) (Marilyn Monroe, Joseph Cotten, Jean Peters, Max Showalter)<br />
85. While The City Sleeps - (1956, Fritz Lang) (Dana Andrews, Rhonda Fleming, George Sanders)<br />
86. Side Street - (1950, Anthony Mann) (Joe Norson, Ellen Norson, James Craig)<br />
87. The Big Knife - (1955, Robert Aldrich) (Jack Palance, Ida Lupino, Rod Steiger, Shelley Winters)<br />
88. Border Incident - (1949, Anthony Mann) (Pablo Rodriguez, Jack Bearnes, Howard Da Silva)<br />
89. Desperate - (1947, Anthony Mann) (Steve Brodie, Audrey Long, Raymond Burr, Jason Robards Sr.)<br />
90. Whirlpool - (1949, Otto Preminger) (Gene Tierney, Richard Conte, José Ferrer)<br />
91. Journey Into Fear - (1943, Norman Foster, Orson Welles) (Joseph Cotten, Dolores del Rio)<br />
92. Undercurrent - (1946, Vincente Minnelli) (Katharine Hepburn, Robert Taylor, Robert Mitchum)<br />
93. Hollow Triumph - (1948, Steve Sekely) (Paul Henreid, Joan Bennett, Eduard Franz)<br />
94. Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - (1956, Fritz Lang) (Dana Andrews, Joan Fontaine, Sidney Blackmer)<br />
95. House Of Bamboo - (1955, Samuel Fuller) (Robert Ryan, Robert Stack, Shirley Yamaguchi)<br />
96. Lady in the Lake - (1947, Robert Montgomery) (Robert Montgomery, Audrey Totter, Lloyd Nolan)<br />
97. The Two Mrs. Carrolls - (1947, Peter Godfrey) (Humphrey Bogart, Barbara Stanwyck, Alexis Smith)<br />
98. Roadblock - (1951, Harold Daniels) (Charles McGraw, Joan Dixon, Lowell Gilmore, Louis Jean Heydt)<br />
99. Where Danger Lives - (1950, John Farrow) (Robert Mitchum, Claude Rains, Maureen O'Sullivan)<br />
100. Stranger On The Third Floor - (1940, Boris Ingster) (Peter Lorre, John McGuire, Margaret Tallichet) Boy, Eric -- that's a phenome…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-02:537324:Comment:2340952010-05-02T02:52:58.218ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Boy, Eric -- that's a phenomenal list. Why the hell is Netflix so noir-deficient?<br />
<br />
Also, the site took a pass at a definition: "Night-time city streets; morally weak private eye, detective, or other protagonist; femme fatale (a beautiful but treacherous woman); crime of passion or money; high-contrast lighting and distorted shadows; paranoia; corruption; an ill-fated relationship; narrative in the "first-person". Any mixture or slight variation of this soup of elements constitutes a "Noir"…
Boy, Eric -- that's a phenomenal list. Why the hell is Netflix so noir-deficient?<br />
<br />
Also, the site took a pass at a definition: "Night-time city streets; morally weak private eye, detective, or other protagonist; femme fatale (a beautiful but treacherous woman); crime of passion or money; high-contrast lighting and distorted shadows; paranoia; corruption; an ill-fated relationship; narrative in the "first-person". Any mixture or slight variation of this soup of elements constitutes a "Noir" film."<br />
<br />
Not bad -- I would add "influenced by German expressionist film: after reading DTK's comments below.<br />
<br />
And I agree with you about "Touch of Evil." They shot the astonishing opening, in what was supposed to be Tijuana, about three blocks from my house, on Windward Avenue in Venice, CA. Well, whoops. How could I not…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-02:537324:Comment:2340942010-05-02T02:48:40.536ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Well, whoops. How could I not have seen the influence of German expressionism on noir, especially given all the people who fled to Hollywood and reestablished themselves there?<br />
<br />
Thanks so much, DTK. You've given me a whole new perspective. Have you written about all this elsewhere?
Well, whoops. How could I not have seen the influence of German expressionism on noir, especially given all the people who fled to Hollywood and reestablished themselves there?<br />
<br />
Thanks so much, DTK. You've given me a whole new perspective. Have you written about all this elsewhere? Funny timing; I just re-watch…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-01:537324:Comment:2340852010-05-01T19:51:00.121ZDana Kinghttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
Funny timing; I just re-watched <i>The Grifters</i> last weekend. Good, dark, story.
Funny timing; I just re-watched <i>The Grifters</i> last weekend. Good, dark, story. No doubt Chandler was better…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-05-01:537324:Comment:2340482010-05-01T07:44:38.364ZJack Getzehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JGetze
No doubt Chandler was better with words. But Cain's stories (IMHO) are twice as good. I bet that goat quote came from a jealous man.
No doubt Chandler was better with words. But Cain's stories (IMHO) are twice as good. I bet that goat quote came from a jealous man. That for the comments Tim. I…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-27:537324:Comment:2337862010-04-27T08:51:44.839ZDTK Molisehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DTKMolise
That for the comments Tim. I understand the idea that noir lighting and effects could have been down to the low costs of most movies, however if you look at the people who were working on film noir as directors and specifically technical workers (lighting guys, photography guys) there are undeniable similarities between Film Noir and German Expressionism.<br />
<br />
Those German movies all have dark themes, strange lighting, and liberal use of shadow. However the stories are noticeably more avant garde…
That for the comments Tim. I understand the idea that noir lighting and effects could have been down to the low costs of most movies, however if you look at the people who were working on film noir as directors and specifically technical workers (lighting guys, photography guys) there are undeniable similarities between Film Noir and German Expressionism.<br />
<br />
Those German movies all have dark themes, strange lighting, and liberal use of shadow. However the stories are noticeably more avant garde and obscure. A lot of those working in German film were Jewish and as the Nazi's became more powerful many of the Jews who could leave did...and many technical film workers headed to their natural home of Hollywood.<br />
<br />
What then happened is the dark undercurrents of pre-war Germany (and the fact that the Jewish workers brought their fears and neurosis with them) meant that films of the period were almost certainly going to be paranoid and uncertain. These were uncertain times after all, even in the US.<br />
<br />
Where I think the genius came in is that this European sensibility and paranoia became attached to the US culture of corruption, crime, and individuality. The were also a number of excellent writers like Chandler, Hammett, Cain, Spillane etc etc who were writing amoral works with an incredibly hard edge. When these writers, directors, and technical workers came together we got the holy trinity: dark themes, hard characters, and pre/current/post war paranoia and thus we got Film Noir! A Touch of Evil (The Orson We…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-27:537324:Comment:2337832010-04-27T06:51:07.122ZEric Christophersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/datahog
A Touch of Evil (The Orson Welles cut is much better they say but I've only seen the original release, and it's not bad). I once read it was the last film of the Hollywood noir era. I think it came out in 1958.<br />
<br />
But if we're going to make a list, here's a list that looks pretty good to me, though some of the selections are a forced fit, I think:…
A Touch of Evil (The Orson Welles cut is much better they say but I've only seen the original release, and it's not bad). I once read it was the last film of the Hollywood noir era. I think it came out in 1958.<br />
<br />
But if we're going to make a list, here's a list that looks pretty good to me, though some of the selections are a forced fit, I think:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/movie-pages/movie_film_noir.php" target="_blank">http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/movie-pages/movie_film_noi...</a> Oh, thank you for the recomme…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-27:537324:Comment:2337822010-04-27T06:42:39.496ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
Oh, thank you for the recommendation. Just this second ordered the Muller book.<br />
<br />
I think I read somewhere that one of the reasons noir films are lighted so selectively, with much of the screen underilluminated, was that the budgets of a lot of the original films were on a par with one big business lunch, and the lack of light in the background, for example, saved a fortune on set dressing.<br />
<br />
I have to admit as I write this that it seems too facile, given the psychological impact of that…
Oh, thank you for the recommendation. Just this second ordered the Muller book.<br />
<br />
I think I read somewhere that one of the reasons noir films are lighted so selectively, with much of the screen underilluminated, was that the budgets of a lot of the original films were on a par with one big business lunch, and the lack of light in the background, for example, saved a fortune on set dressing.<br />
<br />
I have to admit as I write this that it seems too facile, given the psychological impact of that lighting, but on the other hand, the great original noirs were all in black-and-white, which also seems psychologically perfect, but as Orson Welles says somewhere, it's just an accident that black-and-white film preceded color film. If color film had come first, b&w would look very strange to us.<br />
<br />
So I'll wallow in ignorance until I read the Eddie Muller book.<br />
<br />
Great comments, DTK.