plot vs. character - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T15:56:38Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/plot-vs-character?commentId=537324%3AComment%3A206735&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI believe it's like the chick…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-13:537324:Comment:2070442009-07-13T02:55:04.992ZJackBludishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
I believe it's like the chicken and the egg: sometimes, the chicken comes first, and sometimes the egg does.<br />
<br />
Often when we dream up a plot, we have dream up characters to fit the plot. And what starts a plot but an idea, but the idea of a specific character can help the writer develop the plot.<br />
<br />
The way I do it, even if I have the plot, is to begin with a character in action. Of course, that is not original with me. The first book I knows of that suggested that was originally published in the…
I believe it's like the chicken and the egg: sometimes, the chicken comes first, and sometimes the egg does.<br />
<br />
Often when we dream up a plot, we have dream up characters to fit the plot. And what starts a plot but an idea, but the idea of a specific character can help the writer develop the plot.<br />
<br />
The way I do it, even if I have the plot, is to begin with a character in action. Of course, that is not original with me. The first book I knows of that suggested that was originally published in the 1930s or 1940s. Although I first read it in books published later. In order of time, not as I learned it but as it was originally published to more recent publications, the order of authors of that kind of start were: Jack Woodford, Lester Dent, Scott Meredith, Randall Cassel, and Dean Koontz.<br />
<br />
The writer develops both plot and character along the way. If smart, the writer layers both story and plot along the way.<br />
<br />
Even those writers who begin with a full-book plot outline have to give cursory descriptions of the character, even if that description is as bare as "the detective," "the victim," "Suspect number ..."<br />
<br />
Whether you work from plot or character, you have to flesh out both as you go along. If the idea was the instigator, and face it, you had the idea first, and from there you developed the plot. If you had the character first, you probably created a person who will move the plot along. Some authors can just sit down and write, but something in their subconscious keeps makes some changes as they go along. They juggle the plot, sharpen the characterization, then they juggle.<br />
<br />
Sometimes a plot is episodic, with a journey or a sojourn, but even episodic plots have a beginning, middle and end of the journey be that journey a quest, a vacation or an entire lifetime. Excellent point.tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-12:537324:Comment:2070202009-07-12T17:29:43.044ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Excellent point.
Excellent point. It definitely takes both for…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-12:537324:Comment:2070032009-07-12T14:46:49.654ZCiscleyhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ciscley
It definitely takes both for a good mystery. I don't think you can have a book in this genre without plot... unless you really stretch the definition. But to gain me as a permanent audience, one who eagely anticipates every novel and even rereads the ones I have, though the mystery's long since been revealed, you better focus on giving me some characters to care about.<br />
<br />
Otherwise I'll enjoy the book and pass it on to a friend who'll pass it on to a friend and eventually leave it at the beach or…
It definitely takes both for a good mystery. I don't think you can have a book in this genre without plot... unless you really stretch the definition. But to gain me as a permanent audience, one who eagely anticipates every novel and even rereads the ones I have, though the mystery's long since been revealed, you better focus on giving me some characters to care about.<br />
<br />
Otherwise I'll enjoy the book and pass it on to a friend who'll pass it on to a friend and eventually leave it at the beach or the doctor's office. Without a plot you have nothi…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-12:537324:Comment:2069712009-07-12T03:27:55.645ZB.R.Statehamhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BRStateham
Without a plot you have nothing but a Russian novel that goes on forever and basically says nothing. Without characters your plot is nothing but a set of driving directions that say, "At the next stop light, turn right."<br />
<br />
It takes two deadly poisons to create salt. To have a great book requires the two ingredients measured equally.
Without a plot you have nothing but a Russian novel that goes on forever and basically says nothing. Without characters your plot is nothing but a set of driving directions that say, "At the next stop light, turn right."<br />
<br />
It takes two deadly poisons to create salt. To have a great book requires the two ingredients measured equally. I think you need BOTH! You've…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-12:537324:Comment:2069652009-07-12T02:06:00.108ZBeth Groundwaterhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BethGroundwater
I think you need BOTH! You've got to have a great plot that puts your realistic, 3-dimensional character to the test, forcing him/her into uncomfortable/dangerous situations that exploit the character's weaknesses and draw on his/her strengths. I think plot and character have to be intertwined and feed on each other.
I think you need BOTH! You've got to have a great plot that puts your realistic, 3-dimensional character to the test, forcing him/her into uncomfortable/dangerous situations that exploit the character's weaknesses and draw on his/her strengths. I think plot and character have to be intertwined and feed on each other. V. enjoyable thread.
My favo…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-11:537324:Comment:2069552009-07-11T18:43:32.172ZCiscleyhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ciscley
V. enjoyable thread.<br />
<br />
My favorite books create this urgent need to know what will happen next - to the extent that when I'm away from the book I almost feel like the story's going on without me and if I don't get back to it soon I'm somehow "missing" it.<br />
<br />
That sounds like I'm PRO-plot, but actually my favorite books are Historically based and even if I didn't already know the who, what, when & where before opening the book, a quick google search could easily fill in the details. So for me…
V. enjoyable thread.<br />
<br />
My favorite books create this urgent need to know what will happen next - to the extent that when I'm away from the book I almost feel like the story's going on without me and if I don't get back to it soon I'm somehow "missing" it.<br />
<br />
That sounds like I'm PRO-plot, but actually my favorite books are Historically based and even if I didn't already know the who, what, when & where before opening the book, a quick google search could easily fill in the details. So for me it's definitely the character development that makes me care so much about the story and want to know what will happen next <b>TO</b> my character and how they will respond.<br />
<br />
In Cold Blood is the most obvious example that comes to mind. Yeah, but stuff always *happe…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-11:537324:Comment:2069472009-07-11T08:43:09.920ZminervaKhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/minervakoenig
Yeah, but stuff always *happens* to Marlowe. It's not like he's just an interesting guy sitting around on his butt talking to himself for the entire book. Also, we don't really spend a lot of time in Marlowe's head, in the same way that we do with contemporary detectives. I agree, though, that Chandler's plots seem a lot more organic in comparison to Agatha Christie's. Maybe that's part of the skill set involved -- laying out the plot/action in a way that meshes accurately with the character,…
Yeah, but stuff always *happens* to Marlowe. It's not like he's just an interesting guy sitting around on his butt talking to himself for the entire book. Also, we don't really spend a lot of time in Marlowe's head, in the same way that we do with contemporary detectives. I agree, though, that Chandler's plots seem a lot more organic in comparison to Agatha Christie's. Maybe that's part of the skill set involved -- laying out the plot/action in a way that meshes accurately with the character, rather than simply throwing him/her this way and that, to get all the plot points lined up correctly. How do the Chandlers of the world make it all look so easy...?<br />
<br />
MK<br />
<a href="http://www.minervakoenig.com">www.minervakoenig.com</a> I think Chandler/Marlowe is a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-10:537324:Comment:2069272009-07-10T19:55:58.159ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
I think Chandler/Marlowe is almost entirely character driven. Some of his plots don't even make sense, and the bad guys frequently get away, but we don't care because Marlowe's voice is so compelling. The Christie scenario is pretty artificial--all the suspects gathered in the drawing room for the big reveal--but the point of those books is to engage the audience in putting together the puzzle. I just taught <i>Murder On the Orient Express</i> last semester, and it's striking how distant her…
I think Chandler/Marlowe is almost entirely character driven. Some of his plots don't even make sense, and the bad guys frequently get away, but we don't care because Marlowe's voice is so compelling. The Christie scenario is pretty artificial--all the suspects gathered in the drawing room for the big reveal--but the point of those books is to engage the audience in putting together the puzzle. I just taught <i>Murder On the Orient Express</i> last semester, and it's striking how distant her third-person is; we rarely hear what Poirot is thinking. Contemporary crime is more about putting us in the shoes (and heads) of both cops (or sleuths) <i>and</i> criminals; a readers, we're interested in empathy more than puzzles these days. That said, one still wants the book to move along at a pretty swift pace. I love plotting, but I still…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-10:537324:Comment:2068552009-07-10T02:52:26.468ZKris Nerihttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/KrisNeri
I love plotting, but I still think of today's mysteries as character-plot-driven. The characters aren't one-dimensional figures that can be moved about at will, like pieces on a chess board, or the characters we've seen in some Golden Age mysteries. The character internals drive the story. My technique is to focus on the villain's story, before I get to the protagonist's story (the story that's put on the page; the actual book), and I look at what he did behind the scenes, but I base that on…
I love plotting, but I still think of today's mysteries as character-plot-driven. The characters aren't one-dimensional figures that can be moved about at will, like pieces on a chess board, or the characters we've seen in some Golden Age mysteries. The character internals drive the story. My technique is to focus on the villain's story, before I get to the protagonist's story (the story that's put on the page; the actual book), and I look at what he did behind the scenes, but I base that on the kind of person he is and why he would have committed the crime, and committed it in that way, and why he would have hid it the way he did. It all comes from character. And once I understand that, then I move onto the story that's thrown at the protagonist, and he deals with it. Still character driven.<br />
<br />
Kris Ah, yes. Good quote. Of cours…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2009-07-09:537324:Comment:2067852009-07-09T13:13:32.931ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Ah, yes. Good quote. Of course, in a police procedural the incident tends to drive the character. It may also reveal and shape him/her.
Ah, yes. Good quote. Of course, in a police procedural the incident tends to drive the character. It may also reveal and shape him/her.