So what's killing fiction writing? MFA schools? - CrimeSpace2024-03-28T14:21:57Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/so-whats-killing-fiction?id=537324%3ATopic%3A232951&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI'm probably the wrong person…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-24:537324:Comment:2334372010-04-24T00:23:41.210ZGregory Mercuriohttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/GregoryMercurio
I'm probably the wrong person to comment, since I come to this with a pre-existing bias. I spent my undergrad years in an Ivy League writing program taught by a lot of those MFA grads, and suffice to say that my literary sensibilities differed a bit from theirs.<br />
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The best way I can describe it is that they tended to favor beautiful and intriguing prose that didn't necessarily amount to anything the average reader could stomach for more than a page. I somehow managed to stifle the urge to…
I'm probably the wrong person to comment, since I come to this with a pre-existing bias. I spent my undergrad years in an Ivy League writing program taught by a lot of those MFA grads, and suffice to say that my literary sensibilities differed a bit from theirs.<br />
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The best way I can describe it is that they tended to favor beautiful and intriguing prose that didn't necessarily amount to anything the average reader could stomach for more than a page. I somehow managed to stifle the urge to scream, "Tell me a story, dammit!" during every reading session, and then retreated back to my frat house to read Travis McGee and Spenser mysteries. Yes, but you do have to hold…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-23:537324:Comment:2334272010-04-23T17:54:49.525ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
Yes, but you do have to hold on to a concept of quality. The big problem is that most writers have replaced that with an aim for a bestseller. That has become the only criterion for success. Writing a surefire bestseller seems to mean anything but literary prose. Though perhaps that isn't always true. Hillary Mantel's WOLF HALL is actually a quality bestseller. :)
Yes, but you do have to hold on to a concept of quality. The big problem is that most writers have replaced that with an aim for a bestseller. That has become the only criterion for success. Writing a surefire bestseller seems to mean anything but literary prose. Though perhaps that isn't always true. Hillary Mantel's WOLF HALL is actually a quality bestseller. :) MFA programs remind me of mus…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-23:537324:Comment:2333922010-04-23T15:09:46.077ZDana Kinghttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/DanaKing
MFA programs remind me of music schools. There are a LOT more callow youths who love to write/perform than there will ever be jobs for, but ask an 18-25 year-old with the bit between his teeth and he KNOWS he'll be one of the fortunate few. Sure, he knows how hard it will be, and there will be privation involved, but they're abstract concepts to him at that point.<br />
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Those concepts become more concrete after graduation, when our fledgling writer/musician has three roommates and is working at Best…
MFA programs remind me of music schools. There are a LOT more callow youths who love to write/perform than there will ever be jobs for, but ask an 18-25 year-old with the bit between his teeth and he KNOWS he'll be one of the fortunate few. Sure, he knows how hard it will be, and there will be privation involved, but they're abstract concepts to him at that point.<br />
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Those concepts become more concrete after graduation, when our fledgling writer/musician has three roommates and is working at Best Buy to subsidize the little bit of income he makes from gigging/publishing. That's fun for a while, too--shared circumstances often are, even when they're depressing to anyone with an objective eye--until life events start to take over. People fall in love, get married, have children. They want a life with more permanence than what they've had, and that requires a more reliable income stream.<br />
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To a great extent, music schools and MFA programs exist to create their next generation of instructors, thus perpetuating themselves. This is neither good nor bad, but anyone who thinks getting a degree in either will lead to steady, gainful employment is either naive, delusional, or an ass.<br />
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As for the death of literature, it all depends on how you define "literature." I'm inclined to agree with TIm: more books are being published and read than ever before, so there's life in some definition of "literature." As for what some would consider to be the higher forms of the "art," they, too, have gone down music's path. For years "contemporary" classical music has been unconcerned with being listenable by anyone other than the composer's perceived peers; I see much the same issue with post-modern writing. Neither emperor is fully clothed. I think it's pretty funny tha…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-23:537324:Comment:2333432010-04-23T01:41:17.901ZJeri Westersonhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/westerson
I think it's pretty funny that there is "nothing new under the sun." Petrarch, a scholar in the 12th century was lamenting that there was no decent literature to read and deemed the era "dark" and later the Victorians picked up on that and declared that the middle ages was the "dark ages" because of lack of literature, science, and art with an oppressive Church. (By the way, it wasn't any of those things.)<br />
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I suppose in each age there are doomsayers. But there is a lot of competition for…
I think it's pretty funny that there is "nothing new under the sun." Petrarch, a scholar in the 12th century was lamenting that there was no decent literature to read and deemed the era "dark" and later the Victorians picked up on that and declared that the middle ages was the "dark ages" because of lack of literature, science, and art with an oppressive Church. (By the way, it wasn't any of those things.)<br />
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I suppose in each age there are doomsayers. But there is a lot of competition for people's time these days. Books are just one more thing in the pack. I think the premise is flawed…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-22:537324:Comment:2332292010-04-22T02:15:50.416ZTimothy Hallinanhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/munyink
I think the premise is flawed. Nothing is killing fiction writing. There's more fiction being published now, and published in more ways, that at any time in history. God knows there are problems with the book industry, but I don't think any of them come from the fact that good fiction isn't being written. Actually, I think (as far as mysteries and thrillers are concerned, anyway) that we're in a golden age.<br />
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As far as I know, the only problem with MFA programs is that they offer a temporary…
I think the premise is flawed. Nothing is killing fiction writing. There's more fiction being published now, and published in more ways, that at any time in history. God knows there are problems with the book industry, but I don't think any of them come from the fact that good fiction isn't being written. Actually, I think (as far as mysteries and thrillers are concerned, anyway) that we're in a golden age.<br />
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As far as I know, the only problem with MFA programs is that they offer a temporary haven to writers who'd probably be better off getting their asses off the campuses and sitting down to write a book But surely that doesn't work.…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-21:537324:Comment:2330892010-04-21T21:36:26.680ZI. J. Parkerhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/Ingpark
But surely that doesn't work. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't get you an agent or a publisher, or readers. Only a pretty good book on a popular subject will do that.
But surely that doesn't work. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't get you an agent or a publisher, or readers. Only a pretty good book on a popular subject will do that. 'iStory?' Gag me with a spoon…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-21:537324:Comment:2330682010-04-21T17:56:08.767ZminervaKhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/minervakoenig
'iStory?' Gag me with a spoon.<br />
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How about 'McStory?' It's the same thing. Highly processed packaged content with little to no nutritional value.
'iStory?' Gag me with a spoon.<br />
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How about 'McStory?' It's the same thing. Highly processed packaged content with little to no nutritional value. Here's a literary magazine be…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-21:537324:Comment:2330652010-04-21T16:34:12.428ZJohn McFetridgehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnMcF
Here's a literary magazine becoming an app for the iPad, iPhone an iPod Touch:<br />
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<a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/ebooknewser/apps/narrative_magazine_is_coming_to_iphone_and_ipad_plus_a_contest_159073.asp" target="_blank">http://www.mediabistro.com/ebooknewser/apps/narrative_magazine_is_coming_to_iphone_and_ipad_plus_a_contest_159073.asp</a><br />
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And they've created an even shorter story than flash fiction they're calling the iStory at 150 words.
Here's a literary magazine becoming an app for the iPad, iPhone an iPod Touch:<br />
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<a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/ebooknewser/apps/narrative_magazine_is_coming_to_iphone_and_ipad_plus_a_contest_159073.asp" target="_blank">http://www.mediabistro.com/ebooknewser/apps/narrative_magazine_is_coming_to_iphone_and_ipad_plus_a_contest_159073.asp</a><br />
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And they've created an even shorter story than flash fiction they're calling the iStory at 150 words. I hope there aren't many MFA…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-21:537324:Comment:2330582010-04-21T14:32:54.588ZJon Loomishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JonLoomis
I hope there aren't many MFA students out there who actually think that, B.R. Even the top programs like Iowa and UVa don't make any promises about jobs or publication, let alone something approaching literary stardom. It's also generally true that MFA programs are big money losers, because the class-sizes are small and the top professors often make more money than their lit-theory colleagues. But good MFA programs can lend prestige to their host departments, and can draw big donors like moths…
I hope there aren't many MFA students out there who actually think that, B.R. Even the top programs like Iowa and UVa don't make any promises about jobs or publication, let alone something approaching literary stardom. It's also generally true that MFA programs are big money losers, because the class-sizes are small and the top professors often make more money than their lit-theory colleagues. But good MFA programs can lend prestige to their host departments, and can draw big donors like moths to a flame.<br />
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For what it's worth, my advice to reasonably talented students who are interested in getting an MFA is this:<br />
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1.If what you want is a couple of years to work on your writing with guidance from people whose work you admire, then you should give it a shot.<br />
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2.If you're a poet, you will most likely not be a strong candidate for a tenure-line job with an MFA and a published book alone. You'll look better if you go on to get a PhD, and/or if your first book wins a major prize. Preferably and. The odds against the latter happening are astronomical. Things aren't a whole lot better for fiction writers. Not saying it can't happen, but the academic job market is the worst it's ever been and you're competing for entry-level jobs with people who've published multiple books in multiple genres, won big prizes, and have BAs from Harvard and PhDs from Berkeley. Good luck.<br />
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3.You'd be goofy to go into debt for an MFA. A good program will <u>pay you</u> to study there. Don't go unless you get a full fee-waiver and a fellowship/stipend. Seriously. DO NOT GO INTO DEBT FOR AN MFA. I.J. I agree; there is no mon…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-04-21:537324:Comment:2330572010-04-21T13:52:19.515ZB.R.Statehamhttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/BRStateham
I.J. I agree; there is no money to speak of in being a writer. But for a college, offering an MFA program can be a real money maker. Think of all the aspiring writers out there who think tacking on the letters MFA after their name is gonna make them golden.
I.J. I agree; there is no money to speak of in being a writer. But for a college, offering an MFA program can be a real money maker. Think of all the aspiring writers out there who think tacking on the letters MFA after their name is gonna make them golden.