Too Much Escapism? - CrimeSpace2024-03-29T07:12:16Zhttps://crimespace.ning.com/forum/topics/too-much-escapism?feed=yes&xn_auth=noSure, you can quote me. I'm a…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2460452010-08-13T14:41:58.192ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
Sure, you can quote me. I'm always happy to be quoted.
Sure, you can quote me. I'm always happy to be quoted. Escapism is play, and play is…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2460292010-08-13T12:44:05.115ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.</b><br />
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This is especially true for children---as you know, Camille, because you also write children's books---and the worlds I escaped into in the books I read growing up had the most profound effect of any reading I've ever done. They become part of who you are, and how you see and think about the world. And there is, or should be, much delight in it.<br />
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<b>Escapism tends to let us get away from that false surface…</b>
<b>Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.</b><br />
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This is especially true for children---as you know, Camille, because you also write children's books---and the worlds I escaped into in the books I read growing up had the most profound effect of any reading I've ever done. They become part of who you are, and how you see and think about the world. And there is, or should be, much delight in it.<br />
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<b>Escapism tends to let us get away from that false surface message more easily.</b><br />
May I quote you? :) Escapism and Excellence CAN g…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2460282010-08-13T12:40:47.552ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Escapism and Excellence CAN go together.</b><br />
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I agree! And it's not just mysteries of course---reading all fiction, good bad or indifferent, is "escape." Perhaps all reading is escape, even when we read with the <i>sole</i> intent of learning something. (Do they still call it "broadening your mind?") The wide-awake reader puts it <i>all</i> to good use, right? :)
<b>Escapism and Excellence CAN go together.</b><br />
<br />
I agree! And it's not just mysteries of course---reading all fiction, good bad or indifferent, is "escape." Perhaps all reading is escape, even when we read with the <i>sole</i> intent of learning something. (Do they still call it "broadening your mind?") The wide-awake reader puts it <i>all</i> to good use, right? :) I don't think there can be to…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2460272010-08-13T12:36:04.848ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>I don't think there can be too much escapism myself, but then I loved studying myth and psychology in college. Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.</b><br />
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A woman after my own heart, Camille! And very well put, too.<br />
(I still read the myths that I loved growing up--- many of them still speak to a contemporary soul).<br />
We have to remember that it can be a good thing to escape---if indeed we do learn, so that when we return as we always must we bring back…
<b>I don't think there can be too much escapism myself, but then I loved studying myth and psychology in college. Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.</b><br />
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A woman after my own heart, Camille! And very well put, too.<br />
(I still read the myths that I loved growing up--- many of them still speak to a contemporary soul).<br />
We have to remember that it can be a good thing to escape---if indeed we do learn, so that when we return as we always must we bring back something new, a different way of looking at things. I've always liked the definit…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2459982010-08-13T03:21:03.927ZCamille LaGuirehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CamilleLaGuire
I've always liked the definition where in hard-boiled the hero is tough, in noir the hero is screwed. :-)<br />
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But to bring this back to the question - I don't think there can be too much escapism myself, but then I loved studying myth and psychology in college. Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.<br />
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I think sometimes we get mixed up as to what the message is in a story. The surface may say something about society - but that's not really what your mind gets…
I've always liked the definition where in hard-boiled the hero is tough, in noir the hero is screwed. :-)<br />
<br />
But to bring this back to the question - I don't think there can be too much escapism myself, but then I loved studying myth and psychology in college. Escapism is play, and play is how humans learn about the world and process it.<br />
<br />
I think sometimes we get mixed up as to what the message is in a story. The surface may say something about society - but that's not really what your mind gets out of it. Escapism tends to let us get away from that false surface message more easily.<br />
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Camille This got a little away from B…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-13:537324:Comment:2459882010-08-13T01:36:15.310ZJohn Desjarlaishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JohnDesjarlais
This got a little away from Ben (who likes noir). Ben and Bleak House had considered my book BLEEDER (but said no, thanks, and that's ok). But after that experience I knew that small presses cared so much more about principles and literature and about authors and I'm very glad to be with a small house now for both BLEEDER and VIPER (Sophia Institute Press). "Escapism" isn't all that bad in itself if it is stylish. Heck, people read mysteries to escape for just a while into a world other than…
This got a little away from Ben (who likes noir). Ben and Bleak House had considered my book BLEEDER (but said no, thanks, and that's ok). But after that experience I knew that small presses cared so much more about principles and literature and about authors and I'm very glad to be with a small house now for both BLEEDER and VIPER (Sophia Institute Press). "Escapism" isn't all that bad in itself if it is stylish. Heck, people read mysteries to escape for just a while into a world other than their own, and not be intellectually insulted while they do so. Escapism and Excellence CAN go together. I have trouble enjoying angst…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-12:537324:Comment:2459782010-08-12T23:35:19.297ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>I have trouble enjoying angst ... I have enough of it in my own life to take on fictitious angst.<br />
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That I can understand! The "noir" novel I was thinking of is "Night Train," by Martin Amis. It did not get good reviews---many thought it a failed noir (noir manque!) :) I would tend to agree. It tried hard to be noir, anyway. Amis is British, was trying to write American. Didn't quite pull it off.<br />
I know life doesn't always have upbeat endings, but I do like a sense of closure in…
<b>I have trouble enjoying angst ... I have enough of it in my own life to take on fictitious angst.<br />
</b><br />
That I can understand! The "noir" novel I was thinking of is "Night Train," by Martin Amis. It did not get good reviews---many thought it a failed noir (noir manque!) :) I would tend to agree. It tried hard to be noir, anyway. Amis is British, was trying to write American. Didn't quite pull it off.<br />
I know life doesn't always have upbeat endings, but I do like a sense of closure in mysteries. I like knowing why. Probably why I prefer the psychological thriller and the police procedural. :) Yes, Film noir IS wonderful s…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-12:537324:Comment:2459772010-08-12T23:29:32.684ZJackBludishttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
Yes, Film noir IS wonderful stuff, but the stories are not always noir. Ray Milland's movie "The Big Clock" has a noir feel all the way through, but it has an upbeat ending. Never having read the book, I'm not sure how it ends.<br />
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I still think that James M. Cain, is the classic noir writers.<br />
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A young writer who is hitting his stride with noir is Dave Zeltserman with his recent "man out of jail" series, I think he calls it, beginning with "Small Crimes."<br />
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I have trouble enjoying angst ... I have…
Yes, Film noir IS wonderful stuff, but the stories are not always noir. Ray Milland's movie "The Big Clock" has a noir feel all the way through, but it has an upbeat ending. Never having read the book, I'm not sure how it ends.<br />
<br />
I still think that James M. Cain, is the classic noir writers.<br />
<br />
A young writer who is hitting his stride with noir is Dave Zeltserman with his recent "man out of jail" series, I think he calls it, beginning with "Small Crimes."<br />
<br />
I have trouble enjoying angst ... I have enough of it in my own life to take on fictitious angst. It is, perhaps, why I haven't reread the classics of that particular sub-genre. Noir aims at a bad end.
Than…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-12:537324:Comment:2459672010-08-12T22:52:44.512ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>Noir aims at a bad end.<br />
</b><br />
Thanks IJ. See also my reply to Jack Bludis. You've both cleared it up for me. I think I get it now.<br />
I'd love to have a list from all all your writers of the "noirest of the noirs" that you know.<br />
I am suddenly put in mind of a short novel that I read a few years ago....only at the moment I can't remember either the title or the author. :< Will have to push a few brain buttons to see if I can recall it. But it was pitch black Noir! It was well written and…
<b>Noir aims at a bad end.<br />
</b><br />
Thanks IJ. See also my reply to Jack Bludis. You've both cleared it up for me. I think I get it now.<br />
I'd love to have a list from all all your writers of the "noirest of the noirs" that you know.<br />
I am suddenly put in mind of a short novel that I read a few years ago....only at the moment I can't remember either the title or the author. :< Will have to push a few brain buttons to see if I can recall it. But it was pitch black Noir! It was well written and suspenseful, but it left me with just that feeling....that I was screwed! The protagonists in most noir…tag:crimespace.ning.com,2010-08-12:537324:Comment:2459662010-08-12T22:40:49.612ZCaroline Trippehttps://crimespace.ning.com/profile/CarolineTrippe
<b>The protagonists in most noir fiction are screwed. No matter what they do they are not going to win.</b><br />
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Ah, yes, I think I get it now. You are talking about the element that makes for a true Tragedy: the Fatal Flaw. (In the Greek sense, in the Shakespearean sense). The tragic hero (or anti-hero) is destined to lose because of his own weaknesses. Greed, pride, obsession with the deadly dame. Whatever. His own sense of worthlessness maybe--that would be the "born loser." The weakness or…
<b>The protagonists in most noir fiction are screwed. No matter what they do they are not going to win.</b><br />
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Ah, yes, I think I get it now. You are talking about the element that makes for a true Tragedy: the Fatal Flaw. (In the Greek sense, in the Shakespearean sense). The tragic hero (or anti-hero) is destined to lose because of his own weaknesses. Greed, pride, obsession with the deadly dame. Whatever. His own sense of worthlessness maybe--that would be the "born loser." The weakness or needs he can't overcome or even foresee--at least not in time. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars, but in ourselves." Sort of like that.<br />
Thanks for clarifying. :)<br />
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<b>Noir film is usually dark, shadows, the whole in the gutter aspect and you see that with many of the old hard-boiled movies that are not necessarily noir.<br />
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Yes, that does confuse things a bit. But film noir is wonderful stuff!</b>