Does the crime fiction genre have a deeper side?

[carole gill]

I posed this question yesterday in Daniel Hatadi's discussion discussing the differences between literary and crime fiction.
I'd like to pose it here.
Can a story that falls within the crime fiction genre, have within it some other factors--perhaps more crucial insight into some of the characters?
In other words, can it be, in your opinion hard-hitting and be intellectual without in any way slowing the pace or lessening the punch?
Is that possible do you think?
I have the U.S. market in mind here, by the way.
Would love to hear from readers, writers, and innocent bystanders (as well as not such innocent bystanders)!

[John Dishon]

First, you have to define "serious" and "deep".

[carole gill]

serious:
Well, first I'd say that it's not a cozy. It's so hardboiled, the egg's exploded all over the stove, know what I mean?
having said that, serious to me is not a light story.
Lady Hortense Winterbottom didn't solve the case of the missing Wedgewood.
There's a place for delightful cozies that I've enjoyed but I don't write that way--tried! but so could not.
No, this is serious-serious to me is DEATHLY serious.
A grim murder. A sad pathetic killer (who is also quite hateful at times)--a tough, no nonsense cop who doesn't care about himself or anything else--only to find the killer because he's got a really good reason.
Deep. the story could be told without it being what I consider deep.
but it isn't being. To me, deep is why--
what's up with the killer? why did he kill? What's inside him?
the Cop too--what's up with this Cop? Why is he so screwed up?
beyond that (deep): these characters aren't operating in a vaccum. there are other characters there (solely) to move the plot along, yes--but also to enrich it. to better define the time and the place.
Deep is also not only seeking to put the story across, but to make the reader feel everything that's happened to the characters.
Hope I haven't rambled! I do sometimes though I don't want to!

[I. J. Parker]

How do you define "deep"?

[carole gill]

I lamely attempted to define it just above you--but Dan hit the nail--
i guess it's a story which could stand alone as a good story even with the crime element--
in other words to me, it's extremely thought provoking.
Characters who are richly drawn.
I think of a novel like Dreiser's American tragedy--not everyone's cuppa but a book not only about a man killing his inconvenient pregnant girl friend but many more things beside that.
a tapestry of American society--the desire for success.
and in the background, his street singing religous family that humiliated him as a child--he hated singing in the streets about God. he hated what they stood for, he removed himself from as a young man, knowing he would never go back or think as they did. no, he was out to better himself.
and so on--other issues, I.J. besides the basic crime--the basic plot--that's what I'd call deep.

[I. J. Parker]

Okay. Your definition is a bit broader than mine, which would involve some insight into the human condition, for better or worse.
I do agree that a good mystery should also work as a good novel, perhaps as literary fiction.

[carole gill]

thanks very much for that, I.J.

[John Dishon]

It's based on a real serial killer, but it's still a work of fiction.

[carole gill]

I know it is.
I'm sure most of us would agree that a novel can court inspiration from many sources and still remain wholly and faithfully a work of fiction.

[I. J. Parker]

Do feel free to skip over my posts. I did not comment on the book. I said I hadn't read it. I simply commented that non-fiction would not be the place for "depth."
Actually, the more I hear about it, the less interested I become.

[John Dishon]

You can definitely tell that Tom Rob Smith used Gulag as research. i read Gulag first and the cattle wagon descriptions, for example, in Child 44, are lifted right out of Gulag.

Both are good books though, especially Gulag.

[carole gill]

wow! that was great.
I certainly will check up on that.
Interesting that she writes sci fi. Well, sci fi should reach for the stars, right?!
thanks Margot. sounds like my kind of book. really meaninful stuff.

[carole gill]

thanks for that Margot.
I also think it can have a deeper side--exploring more issues than just the crime. that's what I like to hear.
We don't live in a vaccum and any crime that takes place involves people who are real and whose lives are complex, showing that and reading that I think is so much more satisfying.
great reply.