Does the crime fiction genre have a deeper side?

[carole gill]

I posed this question yesterday in Daniel Hatadi's discussion discussing the differences between literary and crime fiction.
I'd like to pose it here.
Can a story that falls within the crime fiction genre, have within it some other factors--perhaps more crucial insight into some of the characters?
In other words, can it be, in your opinion hard-hitting and be intellectual without in any way slowing the pace or lessening the punch?
Is that possible do you think?
I have the U.S. market in mind here, by the way.
Would love to hear from readers, writers, and innocent bystanders (as well as not such innocent bystanders)!

[Dana King]

Absolutely. James Lee Burke comes to mind right away; Dennis Lehane moved strongly in that direction with MYSTIC RIVER, and looks to be continuing to do so, from what I hear of the upcoming THE GIVEN DAY.

Stephen Carter's books (NEW ENGLAND WHITE, PALACE COUNCIL) are probably considered literary with crime fiction overtones, though the crime fiction aspects don't always work as well as they could for a devoted reader of the genre.

Cormac McCarthy (NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN) definitely qualifies. I know there are others, but these are who I came up with off the top of my head.

[carole gill]

Thanks!
I read so much, but then I'm blank--because the question that comes to mind is always after I've read the books and then put them aside, you know?
Thanks Dana!

[Eric Christopherson]

I'm still not sure what you're asking. Is it can the book be about things other than the central crime? Is it that you want subplots regarding the lives of some of the characters?

FYI: I haven't read "Child 44" but based on the reviews it's about much more than the novel's central crime, and it's getting rave reviews. You may want to check that one out.

[John Dishon]

Yeah, Child 44 is pretty good. The crime in the story is actually not that important at all. It's more about the "walking on eggshells" reality of life in the Soviet Union.

[carole gill]

thanks, John.
Will definitely read that one.

[carole gill]

oh I will thanks!
Let's see Eric. how I can say it without rambling.
To me, a great crime novel that's popular in the American (the market I'm targeting) is a lean, mean, succinct thing. It's a fast-paced story that doesn't have a lot of unecessary sub plot or characters.
Your example yesterday of Maltese Falcon is a classical example of the very best of the genre.
I would love to write that way!
but the thing's changing a little as I'm writing the third draft--I've got the story how I want finally--but exactly, only there's more insight into the characters. there's also some social issues too--briefly said but hard hitting ones--half the story takes place in 1957 in New Orleans--and well, if you think about it, it was a different world back then historically. and that's in there, just the way it was.
Aside from that though, with regard to other things, I just don't want to be too deep--or too intellectual. that's what I mean.
I've got a killer and a cop after him--but it's heavy into the killer's motives--very much so and into the killer and his life. not back story (almost no backstory at all)--no, the killer's life with regard to his presence in the same city as the cop. the chase but with a lot more.
it's not a weighty thing--not in anyway wordy--it's action and insight around the action--
whew. hope you didn't pass out reading this.
anyway I'm interested in what you have to say!

[Eric Christopherson]

It seems to me, Carole, that the kind of book you describe exists. Think of how thoroughly Arkady Renko and the old--or new--soviet system gets explored in every Cruz Smith novel in that series. Or consider how deeply we get into the serial killer in Thomas Harriss's Red Dragon. Or how much we learn about Boston in some of the Dennis Lehane novels. Lots more examples out there, I'm sure.

[carole gill]

great!
sometimes I get nuts after I work--and I don't think beyond what I see as "problems".
I feel a lot better now.
True about Harris as a matter of fact, I remember how moved I was when I read Black Sunday--and the character of Michael, the messed up (mentally) Vietnam Vet--only working with terrorists because he had a grudge against the Gov't, and not because he cared anything about their cause. that was very affecting. not just a hit and run plot but a plot that had characters with scope and depth.
so true.
thanks eric and thanks for the examples.

[I. J. Parker]

Yes. If it doesn't, it's a waste of time. Too many have wasted my time already.

As for Child 44: My understanding was (I haven't read it yet) that this is a true crime novel. As such it would be non-fiction, and I personally think that whatever the admirable qualities of a piece of non-fiction are, a "deeper side" is not really appropriate here. And that is simply because non-fiction should not bend the facts to suit the author's message.

[carole gill]

Do you mean crime fiction should have a deeper side?

[I. J. Parker]

Yes. All serious novels should have a deeper side.

[carole gill]

I agree!
But can we pose the question are all serious novels deep or are they not serious if they're not deep?
I mean I've read serious novels that I didn't think were particularly deep.
don't mean to be a pain--just a thought.
and you have my permission to tell me or to suggest to me I AM a pain!